Joshua Keith Craft

0:52 So that movie would be a nine in terms of Christian media, right? In terms of like out of everything else that people produce is nowhere near that level of quality, right? So I completely respect it. Only problem is compared to like a Pixar movie, it's a six. You really think it was a I think cuz the peak the pinnacle Christian Hollywood movie would be Prince of Egypt, right? Animated, right? And Prince of Egypt would be like a 10 across the board on Christian on the Christian. No, just like Christian I mean Prince of Egypt is a great all-time great classic animated movie. Like David's not on that level. So like that would be a 910. David would be like Yeah. But how much of that do you think is cuz people have familiarity with the story? Cuz like whenever you because here's what's unfair about that. When you go see a Pixar movie like Toy Story, first of all, genius concept. The toys come to life. Like it was the first animated movie of its kind back then. So like there was all sorts of groundbreaking. Shout out Steve Jobs.

1:53 And doing all that sort of stuff. When you go watch a movie like David, which is what we're talking about, and you watch the movie David, what you're doing, especially if you have knowledge of the story, is you're sitting there going like, "Oh, I wonder if they're going to if they're going to tell the story, right?" Yeah. But I think Yeah. I I don't want to I don't want to throw any shade on David because I think everyone should see it and I think everyone should support like Christians trying to make great content and I think trying is such a patron. Well, no, I think I think you don't have you don't you're what they did what they were able to do with the budget they have I'm sure is amazing like you're you don't have $300 million to spend on animation. [clears throat] Do you know about Angel Studios? No, not really. They're they are a fascinating like in a world that's dominated by big studios, you know, Paramount and and all the like these universities. Yeah, they're like crowdfunding movies. That's exactly right. And they did they did it with the sound of freedom. And that's where I think I'm I'm a huge fan of Angel Studios where I was a little bit the first time that I've looked, not that I'm like, you know, any sort of authority in this world. I love the fact that like some of the best, in my opinion, some of the best media is now Christian centered. So I love that we had the the book David. I love or the movie David, the animated movie. I love the series on Amazon, David. Even though there were some things in there that I was like, like they dramatized the the fight with Goliath and all that, but whatever. It was really well done and it makes when my kids watched the the David with me, uh Charlie goes, I thought they were going to cut Goliath's head off.

3:20 Yeah, exactly, man. One of [clears throat and laughter] I had to explain I I explained it to my kids as well. I was like I was like, well, that you know, it is a kids movie. They can't they had to leave a lot of stuff out. They can't show uh they can't show him cutting. But yes, that is in the Bible. Like the Amalachite scene at the end. There's a spoiler if you haven't seen it. I said to my kids, I was like, "That was not how that went." Like David was a man of war and there was no They didn't They didn't string them up on a rope, man. Yeah. He He didn't sing a song to them. He went in there and killed everybody. He destroyed them and took back what's his like let's go. Anyway, [clears throat] that's that's the kids operation. I I I respect so much what they're doing because I I I always think that the man in the arena quote, you know, that it's it's really easy to criticize from the outside in like as a person like whatever it doesn't mean anything that I have a film degree, right? But as a person who loves like movies and the art form of film and stuff like that. Well, I think that um we should we can aim a lot higher overall as Christians, but I think that there I think that it was a great movie for what it was. Like I just can't in my own, you know.

4:23 Yeah, I get it. Well, but but I always my I don't want to dishonor anything Angel Studios is doing cuz they're amazing. Yeah. My [clears throat] saying about opinions is an opinion is only as valuable as the price paid to form it. Yeah. And you have, you know, you like you do have a film degree, so I think that gives you a little bit more validity and you're obviously not like sitting here throwing stones. What I love about this, like I look at Forest Frank, I look at Angel Studios and I'm like, let's go. Because the point you made, there was a there was a point like I love 60s rock and roll. If you're like, "Hey, pure music. You just want to listen to what you want to listen to. Don't care about the message. What are you doing?" I'm like, "Dude, give me the Hendricks. Give me the Beatles. Give me the Oh, Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, like the Kinks. Like, let's go, dude." Oh, dude. Just I love it. And there's some other I mean, we can go into all sorts of stuff. Pink Floyd, you know? Like, I I I went very far into the ' 60s rock and roll uh place and it's amazing. Like, I was I was big into Woodstock and the whole thing that was going on at the time and all that sort of stuff. That's my preference right now. And what what what bothered me was I grew up on the Christian contemporary stuff same as you. And like when you said Sandy Patty, I don't know if we actually started recording before you said that, but that took me back. So I haven't heard that name in forever. And like I remember when Amy Grant like went went uh secular was the term that we used cuz she stopped being a Christian music artist.

5:33 It was like a big deal. Yeah. And I remember I grew up and I got to certain point I'm like man this music sucks. Like so now to be able to like put on Forest Frank for my kids. The beats are great. He's glorifying God. Like my kids tell me that when they're in school. I mean, do you think people in the 90s thought that it sucked? No, I don't. Dude, Carmen was the man. Like my first concert was Carmen. He was amazing. Was like my hero, but yeah. So that I think that's that's always been a really fascinating thing to me. Not to just interrupt your thing about Forest Frank and all that, but that's what's always been a really fascinating thing to me is the subculture of Christian media, right? Right? Like there's this subculture of Christian media that has its own kind of niche way of approaching itself and it really only interests people who like that. Like it's not actually objectively right.

6:25 It wouldn't rank very high on any other cultural they have different values. Who are they trying to serve? They're trying to serve Christian. Not even but not even the values. Like what is it that you look at like CCM and you go I just don't vibe with that. Well, I just think that's not very good music. Yeah. But but but if I'm valuing me that like think about what I said about 60s rock and roll. I said if I don't care about the message and it's purely for sound enjoyment it's 60s. I think that the Christian contemporary music the valued more the message than the art. So that's my whole kind of problem right like my whole my whole really problem with that is well the message is really good so the art cannot be as great. And and I think that I maybe there's and I'm I haven't really me I've worked in that world like a very small amount so I don't really know but I go is that really what we're aiming for here is well the message is good we know that the product is not that that great of a product but the message is good therefore everyone should but I don't think it's that way anymore like I think that I think with people like Angel Studios and the Forest Franks the world to me cuz like I was saying that's what I'm saying I respect the try and I respect the effort because I think that people I think that that those things come out of people settling for not being as good as they could be.

7:45 Yeah. Excellence is is a go is God's idea. I think you know someone some some I'm sorry CCM artists I loved you guys growing up like so much. Someone's going to listen to this be like these guys just hate the thing that I do. That's not that's not true at all. No, but I that's [clears throat] just that's just how how I feel about so like when I look at and you know I I think that's what I really respect in our generation is that people are trying to do that. Yeah. And um it's always the the the man in the arena that's going to get criticized. And so I think that you know I think that this there's great efforts being undertaken. Um I just I I uh I think you always go well I would do things maybe a little bit differently but I respect it. I respected all those guys are doing. Yeah. What we talked about on last episode with church there's always people who are like well if I like remember we said people were getting all upset because of how much they perceive that our church spent on the Christmas production which by the way Christmas production big success man. It was we had we like what was it four 450 people gave their lives to Christ.

8:49 Thousand. It was a thousand. No, I thought we had a thousand new people. Oh, thousand first time guests. First time guests, 10,000 people overall. Uh, and then four over 450 salvations. Like amazing. I don't know. I'm not as good at the numbers as everyone. It's okay, man. I I was just, you know, Well, I Yeah, I think there's um and I was texting with you about this cuz one of the things that does bother me in the landscape of that's why I'm like it's hard for me to say, well, like I don't I don't vibe with like Christian contemporary music, but it's hard it's it's it would be really hard for me to be a critic. I don't really want to be a critic because the like all the people I know that have been in this world are trying their absolute best to really accomplish the mission. And I think there's such a like in Christian culture, I think about this a lot. There's such a um there's such a negative and critical element that people feel qualified to make judgments uh like all kinds of judgments there character judgments out of people. they feel qualified to uh you know it's like well this per like this music is just like I think about saying that like this music is not as good as other music but the people that are playing on that music playing on those albums or whatever doing the best that they can right and so when you when you tell yourself a I think it's it's a there's this concept called heruristics right it's like the story you tell yourself about life so all of my all my memories and my perspectives are not objective, right?

10:19 Everything is colored by like the story I tell myself. Yeah. So, I think there's such a cynical approach to churches, to pastors, to ministry, to really anything. Like, you think about a guy like Forest Frank, it's like the guy can't win for losing. Like, there's just no so much hate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you you it's like it's like the quote from uh from uh The Dark Knight, right? You either die the hero or live long enough to become the villain, right? Because people will cheer for you. That's so it's so fascinating the way human beings are. And it just extends into like Christianity. People will cheer for you when you're the underdog, when you're like an unknown, when people don't know who you are yet, they'll they'll support you. And then these people quote unquote because it is up to people I think at the end of the day. These people make you famous and then they spend the rest of the time trying to make you not famous anymore or whatever. Not I'm not saying not famous just just tear you down.

11:17 Yeah. Just build you up. You you get built up by this whole fan base. It's just the the the life of like doing something that's public, right? Yep. You get built up. People become your fan and then those people go, "You know what? you're actually the bad guy. I don't know if it's the same people though. I think it's just that different voices get louder because you have more of them. Yeah. I think um because I mean that that's I mean it would be for Jesus for sure. Some of the people that crucified him were the same ones that he was preaching to, right? But I think there's also a lot of people who would have either come back around or Well, you have uh I heard TD Jake talk about this one time. You have comrades, confidants. comrades, confidants, constituent, and constituents in your life. Basically, there's like these three levels of relationship. So, a constituent is a person who's for you because you're for what they're for.

12:13 Right. Right. So, that's a person who would vote for you if you're running for an election. Politics. Yeah. A person who would vote for you because you represent their issue. You help me get what I want. Right. You help me get what I want. That's like the lowest level of relationship is a person who's for you because you're for what they're for. Then there's a comrade which is for what you're for. So that's different. That's different than than you being for what someone else is for. A person you're on the same mission, right? So as long as you as long as I realize in our in our relationship that we're for the as long as I feel like we're for the same thing, I'll be for you. But as soon as I feel like your mission changes, then I won't be for you. Which happens with like Christian artists especially is people go they'll they'll they'll just all of a sudden think that this person's not on the same mission as them because of whatever.

13:08 Like you think about it musically, it's like guys like Brandon Lake going and charging for a concert. Like people will go, "Oh, that guy's not as Yeah. People get so upset about the fact that these guys make money." Yeah. He doesn't care about worship. He cares about making money. Yeah. Right. Um or they'll look at they'll look at a Forest Frank and they'll interpret all his actions. Dude, the hate comments because I' I've actually defended Forest Frank in comments. You're a brave man. You're amazing for whatever, man. Getting in the comments, man. No, I every once in a while I'll get in the comments when I see people because what I see is Christians attacking someone. I'm like, "Guys, this guy's putting the name of Jesus on display for millions of people." Like my daughters were telling me at their school whenever the the teacher goes like, "Hey, what songs do you want to hear?" All the kids were requesting Forest Frank. Dude, when I was growing up, it was like whatever, you know, the terrible pop song of the time was. Your kids go to public school. Yeah, they go to public school. So, I'm like, praise God. And so, I look at that, I'm like, why are we throwing stones at this guy who's like, like, look, you can debate about all sorts of stuff, but what you can never say, he's never up there going like, "Yeah, I'm the man." He's like very much like, "Hey, Jesus is Lord. Put Jesus on the, you know, on like let's keep him where he belongs as rightful king and lord of our lives." I'll support that guy I for that exact reason.

14:21 And and [clears throat] is making like objectively good music that's top 100 music for sure. Everybody's listening to it. People don't even know who Forest Frank is. They listen to the And so people then get like So the comments were like, "Oh, but he charges $80 for a sweater at his at his concert. Like go back to your label. Tickets were 250 bucks for your concert." And I recently was going to buy some until I realized that for my family of five it was going to be like 2,000 bucks. And I was like, we like Forest Frank, but like we can listen to his music in the truck for like look, you know what I mean? It's I just I just didn't think that that was worth it. Absolutely. Absolutely. But but am I mad at him? No. Because I'm like look, if the guy if if this is what this is what happens if you get popular and a lot of people want to see you, guess what that does for the price? It drives it up. Is does he have a label? Yes, he does. Do they actually want to make money off of distributing his music and all the all the expenses that they've undertaken to bring him in? Yeah, they do. Is that a crime? No. Because guess what? You don't have to pay it. Like if you don't like the if you don't want to pay the price, just don't do it.

15:17 It's not hard. Yeah. I think it's um that's what I'm saying. It's so it's so fascinating to me. It's like the the the there's nothing wrong I I think to me there's nothing wrong with with looking at what someone does and going, I don't like that. Or like like I I Hey, you know what? I wouldn't charge that much for a concert. I wouldn't charge that much for my my 200 followers. Yeah, there's that's fine. I guess like I don't think there's you know it's great to have preferences. Preferences are just a thing that we have. The problem that I always have is when people assign motive. Yeah. So when they say okay Forest Frank's charging $250 for a concert. Got it. You might not like that. Here's why though. Like so then here's why he's he's I know his heart. He's charging this much for a concert because he's lost his way. Yeah. He's changed, bro. Yeah. He's he's different now. or he doesn't he doesn't uh it's not like it's not really about God, it's about him because he's going to charge this much for a sweater or he's and you know I think if a person stands on principle and they go you know what I don't I don't go to concerts at all cuz I don't think people should charge for me to be exposed to their gift. I think that's a fine I don't agree with that stand. I'm not I'm not personally making that stand. I think like I'm a person who loves great art. I love paying for great art. If I think someone's a great musician or a great whatever, I'll go pay to I'll go if I think someone's a great speaker, I'll go pay to hear them speak. I think it's a craft that people master. So, I have no problem. But if a person's like, you know what, just on principle, I don't want to pay that much to go anywhere, okay? Then don't do it.

16:56 But if you think that the rules are different for a Christian person than they are for uh a person who's in the quote unquote secular world and you play by different rules, so you'll go, which a lot of people will. Exactly. So you'll go, "Oh my goodness." Like I Taylor Swift's coming to town like the most expensive face value ticket I've ever bought. I took my parents for their anniversary uh to the Eagles at the Sphere in Vegas. Right. the front face value ticket, not not buying on the It was $1,000 a person. Jeez. And then you had to listen to the Eagles. I'm sorry. Oh, dude. Oh, I can't I'm just kidding. Your parents are going to punch me. I love the Eagles so much. Can't believe you'd say that. They're Anyway, now I've distracted you with my insult. I don't need to sit here and defend the Eagles, man. They can all sing. They can all sing. They can all play every instrument. Anyway, look at the Beach Boys. You should You should give it to them. They're better.

17:51 Uh, no. It was actually just one Beach Boy who did everything. I think it was the opposite of Okay, Brian Wilson. RIP. Yeah, go for it. So, um, so I wouldn't then judge a guy who's a Christian. I would actually support that. I'd go, "Oh, man." Like taking my kids to go see David. I support the effort of doing that. Like, I'm going to think, "Ah, probably maybe wasn't to me the best movie, but you know what? For like the world that they're in, it's amazing." So, I think back to what I was saying, you know, not just getting caught up in all this other stuff. I think people they love to say here's why someone's doing something. Yeah. They love to assign motive and the problem always comes when you tell yourself a story of why a person's doing something very dangerous that is negative. Yeah. And and what's so fascinating to me is Christians have become so great at using the Bible to do that. So they'll look at um a church, a pastor, a worship leader.

18:50 I mean, whatever it is that's in like the culture of Christianity and they'll say, so people say this uh and I don't understand it logically. And some of some people listening to this, it's like, oh, well, I happen to be a pastor at a mega church, so I guess in people's minds, I'm going to be an apologist for that. But when you start something, I feel like God's put in your heart, everybody I know who's ever started a church, they didn't start a church because they're like, I think this is a great money-making opportunity for me, right? But people think that that's Yeah. If I I would challenge anyone who really thinks that that like running a church is like a guy wants to go make money to start a church out of with that intention. Yeah, there's a lot better ways. Well, just set the goal. Say, I'm going to start a church. I'm going to get a bunch of people to come give me money for what I want to do and it's going to be all about me. And see how many people really want to do that. I mean, [clears throat] people don't really buy into that. I think one of the things that that I love that I I told you this a few weeks ago, but like I love that Garrett he uses this analogy like he talks about the difference between building a castle and fighting a dragon.

19:56 Yep. So what a lot of people do is they think their vision and their mission is to go build the castle for themselves and they want people to come help them. Nobody wants to come help you build your castle. Correct. Right. So when you start a church and if you think and if if people think start a business whatever start anything and say this is really all about me. See how many people want to come help you do that. Nobody wants to come help you do Yeah. Right. What people are attracted to is a mission which is going out and killing a dragon. Yeah. Right. So I love I love that Garrett talks about that because churches movements political things they they people are attracted to them. So, if you go back to the constituent, comrade, confidant thing, then I'll I'll I'll I'll finish on a confidant because I didn't I didn't finish that. But people mostly two out of three people are going to be attracted to you because you're either for what they're for or they're for what you're for.

20:54 Right? So, if you have a good enough mission, that's how you can trick people 100%. Right? If you really just wanted to do that. So, but people go, "Oh, the motive and intention." So the motive well let me finish that thought because I feel like I'm I'm losing that on the comrade confidant con cons constituent thing then you're going to have rare people who are really confidants who are just for you like they're just for you as a person and all of us want to believe that everybody's for us but it's rare man. Yeah it's rare for someone to just be like man I'm just for you. Those are those would be in our lives our best friends but a person who's like an artist or something that'd be like they're they're dieh hard fans. Yeah. I mean, they're just for, you know, they But it's hard to like, it's hard. They're Metallica fans that like all the new Metallica music. They're like, I'm just down. I just want to listen to, you know. Yeah, but those people don't really know. I mean, the Metallica thing is not It's funny, but it's not a great example because they don't really know all those guys. Like I No, but they're they're they're they're confidants in that they're just for Metallica. Like Metallica's new stuff is not it's not Metallica, right? But but that but I don't because they don't have a personal relationship with them. I don't think that that's a great You're right. You're right. I'm just using it as an as a fan example of continuing that.

22:07 But to actually know who your confidence are, confidants are. Yeah, dude. That I mean like how do you you know? Well, most people aren't going to aren't going to ever be I think you have to the reason why I'm saying all that and I think we could talk about knowing best friends and stuff later, but like most people aren't going to just be for you. Yeah. Right. So, so people think and this is I think my thought today is like people think um that a person starts a starts a movement out of selfish desire and then they try to camouflage it. Right? So a person will go I'm going to start a church and then the the thing that people imagine that I've read this exact thought process I've interacted with this thought process. The thing that people imagine is that this person set out to build a mega church full of thousands of people who are really just a cult of personality.

23:03 Yeah, that's one part of the belief system. the other part of the belief, the other half, like if a person's not in that camp, then the camp that they're in is usually well, it became a mega church and then now this person is uh their their character is now clouded by the cult of personality that exists around them, right? And so those are pretty much the two options you're left with. If you have culturally, if you have a large movement, like if you have a lot of people who are a part of what you're doing, you're either in people's minds, you're either doing it for selfish reasons or you weren't initially doing it for selfish reasons and now you are, right? And that's such a fascinating thing to me. It happens in culture anyway. But it's such a fascinating thing to me, especially in the church because then people start to weaponize the Bible, right, to justify what's not being done or what's being done or like why a per they start to say it's one thing, like I said, I mean, it's one thing to sit there and go, "Well, I don't really like doing it that way or I wouldn't do it that way or that's not my preference."

24:10 Yeah. It's another thing to uh to moralize in terms of jud looking at another person and saying this person's motives are less pure than mine would be or this person has impure motives when there's no real way to know a person's motives. Yeah. Like there's no real way to know a person's intentions. And so I don't know how helpful it is when when Christians sit on the sidelines and judge a person's intentions. Yeah. Well, it's not helpful at all. And they're wrong. They're putting themselves in God's place. It's Jeremiah 17, right? It's like the heart is deceitful, wicked above all things. Who can know it? And then it says, "I the Lord search their hearts and know the minds." Okay, so God is the only one who can judge somebody's heart. It's like these people get the tattoos that say, "Only God can judge me." That is factually true from the standpoint of your heart. It is not factually true from the standpoint of your life. There are plenty of people who will judge you.

25:04 And in all honesty, you should probably listen to a lot of them because that, you know, God gives you other people to sharpen you and to help you point out your blind spots. But I what I going to the castle and dragon thing for people that are still not necessarily catching that like imagine that you're I want to give a quick example because I think that that's a really good one. And we've once again, as we always do in The Dialog , we said we were going to talk about something. We've not talked about it at all. we've 100% gone down like how to judge which I actually think this is a really interesting thing because it's there's so much you know like when you uh when when Kanye turned Christian first of all I was so pumped man I freaking love Kanye I think he is unbelievable I think he's the true definition of a genius and I always use this quote for genius talent hits a mark other people's can't other people can't genius hits a mark that other people can't see and there's a big difference and I think he's one of those people he does things like what is this guy doing and then he finishes you're like, "Oh, actually that was pretty brilliant."

25:57 So, is he a little bit crazy? Yeah. I mean, he's he's he's unstable to to put it mildly. But when he came when he became Christian, one of his songs was like, "What have you been hearing from the Christians? They'll be the first ones to judge me." And I I listened to that lyric when he said it. Makes me feel like nobody loves me. Yeah. Exactly. What a what a song. But I was like, man, he's he's right. Like, and I just like it that that pains me so much. But it's been happening for all time. I think Yeah. I think Christianity is not a monolith, right? Um, you know, but at the same at the same time, I I think for me it's just this resolution of here's the thing like people will go Joe's a false prophet. I mean, you can go down a list of all the all the relative critics. Preston was Chrisuction, our stuff. My dad's too political. Whatever people whatever people want to say like that's so to me in Matthew 7 this is Jesus like cuts all this stuff to me is just BS honestly it's just completely not even the main thing it's not the main issue it's people just getting hung up on preferences right so I think you bringing clarity of like this is what this podcast is about this episode is like how to judge people because God does want us to judge people but what he wants us to judge is Matthew 7.

27:15 Jesus said he talks about false prophets and a false prophet in the ancient world. I mean, there were so many different religious movements and messiahs and different people. There were people before Jesus that came. There were people after Jesus that said, "I'm the Messiah or I'm a messianic figure." And so, it was a relatively uh I mean, it was it's well, it's in the Bible. Well, it's in the Bible. It's similar to the it's it's the world of uh I think on an episode we talked about sophist versus philosophers. We mentioned it. I want to go deeper. Yeah. There's always been like fake influencer people who are doing it for likes. Like there's always been that. So it's just another talking head. So there were a million teachers just like there are today. Everybody's a coach now. Everybody's doing some kind of coaching, training, whatever. So Jesus is talking about that. Like to me that's what he's talking about. He's like, "Beware of people that false prophet in the ancient world meant a person who teaches lies like they're truth." Right?

28:11 Okay. Beware of a person, and there's religious connotations to that, but let me just talk about it practically. Beware of a person who teaches lies as if they're true, right? And a false prophet can be a false prophet for one of two reasons. Either they are doing it on purpose or they're ignorant. Either way, it's the same outcome. They're substituting lies for truth. And then Jesus says, "Here's how you'll know someone's a false prophet." So here's how you know someone is exchanging a lie for truth, whether they're doing it on purpose or on accident. And that's what the fruit of their life is, what the sustained evidence of their teaching is over a period of time. So if you look at a person's consistency, what they've produced in their life, and the the the because the thinking that we all have leads to outcomes. Yep. So it's not just purely performance, but at the same time in in Luke 6, which is like the Luke version of the story, Jesus says the that the it's like Luke 6:43-45, he says that the fruit of a person's thinking is ultimately their actions, right? It's the fruit of a person's heart. So what do you how do you know what a person's real intentions are?

29:20 It's what the fruit is that gets produced in their life which is something that can only be measured over a long period of time. Yeah. So like I always so that the uh I wouldn't say it's like a checkmate or anything but a person can look at like so the person can look at my dad or look at our church. My dad is very political. He talks very political from the platform. He says things that frequently cause people to leave our church. Right. the 100. It's like any, you know what, any pastor is going to do that. Any pastor who has a strong vision or whatever is going to do that. So, he talks about money a lot. We talk about money a lot. He has a very successful coaching business. He's been a successful business guy for a long time. Blah blah blah blah blah. People like that. People don't like it. The question you should ask is not uh what's this guy's motive? It's what's this person's fruit. Jesus didn't say to judge people's motives. He said to judge their fruit. Like you got to let God worry about like you're saying about Jeremiah, you got to let God worry about people's intentions. But what I get to do is look at their fruit. And if I am attracted to their fruit, I can't argue with their teaching, right?

30:28 Because the proof or the not the proof, the evidence. Okay? If you believe in science, science isn't about proving things. It's about what the evidence points to. So the so in uh in like theoretical physics, right? they do experiments or they do math. So the theory comes first and then experimentation, right? So people like Einstein will develop the theory of relativity. They can't prove that in an they can't they don't have evidence for it in an experience yet or in an experiment yet. Yeah. Controlled experiment. Yeah. But the the math points to it. So that's how all of us are. We all have theories like we all have things that are like ideas of how to live what our approach to life should be. And then the experiment is your actual life, right? So then uh ex uh the you have you have a whole group of a whole side of physics that's about theory and then you have a whole side that's about experiments and applied applied physics like when they go to the large hadron collider and you know throw throw particles at each other to see what happens. So those guys either find evidence for the theories in reality or reality doesn't line up with the theory and they have to change the theory.

31:38 So that to me is truth of life. the true of life in that everyone's got theories on how to live and the experimentation is how they live their life because everyone who's teaching something they're living their life ideally according to that teaching right cuz if I'm going to get up and teach you something I should probably if if I'm a good teacher I'm applying this myself well people are ultimately living by what they really believe it may be different than their teaching but like and that's what you're saying like ideally their teaching is what they that's what's only proven out with fruit over time it's like you can read a book, right? So, this is the difference between theory and experimentation or what my dad calls theory and transformation. You can read a book about working out. You can get a master's degree in physical whatever, physical education or whatever. You can know everything about the body. You can know everything about the body, how the body works, but you could also still be the fat guy at the gym who's telling other people how to work out, but you're not working out, right? So the the this is to me the importance of Jesus saying you'll know people by their fruit. Like you'll know them if they're you'll know if they're followable. You'll know if they're worth listening to.

32:47 Yeah. But let me let me interrupt you here for a second to here's where I think that that's kind of an interesting I of course agree with everything you just said. But what's a presupposition here that we're using and not saying is in the gym workout we were we're kind of already agreeing that there's a definition of fitness and it's not being fat. So it's pretty easy to see fruit. What I find is that people don't really know how to identify what's actual good fruit because there's people on Instagram and they're like they'll show you the receipts. I started this coaching business and here's what I made last year. Here's how much money I made. I like all the influencers who say, "I'm a business owner and I here's how much I made every month." And they screenshot they screenshot their bank account balances. They screenshot their QuickBooks or whatever it is. And and they're like they open themselves up and you're like, "Wow." Now, see, to me, I don't think just the same way that I don't really think somebody with big muscles, I don't consider that fallable fruit ex unless I'm talking about fitness because I value a different type of fruit. So, that's what I'm saying. Like, how do you know what fruit is value? Even then, that's not the definition of fitness, right? Because uh people like steroid abusers and people that uh do there's some people that look like they're there's people I've known in my life that are that look like they're in great shape and are on all kinds of drugs and you know trying to maintain the look right without actually being healthy, right?

34:06 There's but that's stories of of but this is a great example like there's stories of bodybuilders having heart like guys like Rich Piana. I mean, I kind of know the bodybuilding world, like having heart attacks, having massive, you know, dying in their 40s because they just abused their body. But hey, they look they look like they're beautiful. This is this is what Jesus is saying though to me is like that's what Okay, it's fruit. It's consistent. Like I [clears throat] have a I have a personal kind of philosophy. It's what makes me nervous to even do this podcast at like 38 years of age, right? Is uh what am I what who am I? What am I talking about? What kind of fruit do I have in my life? Right? I think there's so many people that just want to get on a microphone and talk and they have no fruit. They have a bunch of theory but they haven't experimented with life. Like I've been married for 11 years. I don't have a lot to teach someone who's been married for 12 years, right?

34:57 Like I can help someone who was early. But there's also there's only 11 years of proof in my marriage. There's not 50, right? So, you should go listen to the guy that's got 50 years of proof, like that has a 50-year great marriage rather than the guy that's got eight years or 10 years or whatever. What's great, though? Yeah. This is what I mean. Like, it's hard cuz what's a great marriage? So, what I think I think God God leaves that to that up to us on a level to decide. Well, cuz let me tell you why I was saying that and I know we're kind of going back and forth, but I because I think that the understanding of what good fruit is. I think it's easy to get distracted by money, muscles, cars, what I'm basically just going through Instagram and just pick picking out all the things that get people to to look. But here I I'll just give you my example. So like seeing your parents' marriage was a was a upgrade shift for me because to me before like my parents my parents have been married for over 40 years. Uh you know they love each other and they're you know they're now in their 70s. They're going to die together. Praise the Lord. What an I am so blessed to have that. That's a huge win.

35:56 That's a massive win. But but think about what's normal in society. You complain about your spouse. Yep. Divorce is everywhere. You know, oh the ball and shame, my old lady. Insert whatever. There's not a lot of positive connotation anywhere to be found anywhere in society about marriage. It's like it's like the best thing you could almost say is like, "Hey, you made it." It's like, why why aren't people getting married? This is stupid. Like if from if you're just like removing all the romanticism or whatever ideals we have and you look at you're like, "No one should get married." But then I come along and I I meet this guy, you know, this giant of a man, your dad, he's like, I celebrate P, you know, Pastor Precious every month. So if for those of you that don't know us, which is, you know, I don't even know what percentage of people, your dad for the entire time they've been together since they were 15. My parents started dating their 15th. Yeah. He celebrates around the 20th, right? 20th of every month. Yeah. And I I know that. And they're not even my parents. January 20th, 1975. They're not even my parents. And I know that the 20th is their day. Why? Because my my Instagram feed and my my life being around your parents is filled with My dad actually celebrates that.

36:55 He he like gets Yeah. He makes it like an anniversary. Everyone around him knows that knows that he does that. So So that's what I mean. So now I'm fortunate enough that I've been exposed to a guy like your dad or some of the other people. I could point to lots of people that we know personally. The vast majority of people do not get that because guess what? Your dad your dad's not Beyonce. Yeah. Right. like he doesn't have a bunch of people and you know you know and like not to throw any shade but you know what we see in like famous relationships I just pulled Beyonce randomly but look at her her and Jay-Z you know they had that big thing where he cheated on her and this is what's normal this is what becomes normal and I'm not I'm not commenting on that normal that's that's what I'm saying is like what God on a level I think we do get to decide what we see as fruit you know like what what do you what what does an individual like you that's listening to this podcast, what do you need to see in somebody that makes them followable?

37:48 Exactly. So, so what people do is they go um they can judge people's motives. They can judge what people say. They think that that's all the things that they should be judging when Jesus was just like, "Hey, judge a person by their fruit." So, what is the long-term sustained outcome of that person's life? Because regardless of what that person even says, you should look at the outcomes that they're producing and go, "Okay, is that a good thing or a bad thing?" Right? So, and you know, good and bad and the definition of all that. So what a lot of people do like back to your back to your example is you have a person online who says hey you can get in really great shape and do my protocol run my plan and then that person you know maybe at the highest level they're going to teach you about uh getting on steroids and getting all these pharmaceutical stuff all this pharmaceutical stuff that's probably not actually healthy for you but you'll look like that guy right or like you got guys that are that are social media like super you got people that are super high level social media people all they do is talk about making money, right?

38:52 So for them success and the fruit, you know, it's great there's fruit. They they have fruit of making money. Yeah. But like is that really how we want to measure success, you know? So we have to be able to discern what kind of fruit that we resonate with as a person and what also like what kind of fruit God resonates with. That's a whole other thing is like talking about the fruit of the spirit, right? And how the Holy Spirit works in us to produce these fruit. But so that's an aspect of it. But then how do you see you know this and again I think I just hit like a spiritual statement but it's like well how do I know that a person has the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, patience, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. How do I know that a person has those things? Right? Well the one of the things I always talk about is like the Harvard study for adult development, right? And and the greatest you know if you look at science science says the greatest predictor of a quality life which we all want the greatest predictor of a quality life is quality of relationships right if a person has quality relationships in their life they're probably do living a good life data says that but then the scriptur is full of all the other things that I can look for like the bible talks about uh you know the qualifications for an elder and those are things that you can look at so when it says the you know husband of a husband usband of one woman or live a life above reproach or on and on.

40:22 His kids follow the Lord because if he can't lead a household, how could he leave the Lord's house? It's like I was talking to a person recently to get back to what we were, you know, to come back to like that thread. I was talking to a person recently about my own dad and they're like, I just can't I don't like the language that he uses. I don't like this spiritual father stuff that he says. I don't like that we talk about that this church talks about money on and on and on. And I say, okay, but for me, let me just give you my perspective. Like you have a person who has been with the same woman, been married to her for 40some years, been with her since they were 15. They have a great relationship. I mean, and I'm saying that as their son. Yeah. You get to see behind the veil. And people people all the time can go, "Well, like he's, you know, it's beneficial for him to say that. Like, you don't know me well enough to know how honest I am." But if I if my parents didn't have Yeah. If my parents didn't have a great relationship, I'd be like, "Yeah, I mean, it's all a lie." Yeah, like we're just we're just I'm laughing cuz I do know you and you're like you're you what one of the things that you value most and I think it's why you and I get along so well is authenticity.

41:22 I'm not a games player. If my parents didn't have a good relationship, I'd be like this is all fake and nobody should listen to anything that they're saying. Right. Right. But they genuinely have a good relationship, as good of a relationship as anyone I've ever seen. Right. All three of their adult kids want to do life with them. Yeah. And [clears throat] are close to them. And we all kind of like love each other, but we're all here really for my parents for how much we love our parents. We love each other and we're here for each other, but like the Yeah. If a person wasn't that good of a leader, they wouldn't engender that kind of loyalty like in their children. Right. Right. Um and I I agree like I'm glad you brought up like we're using your dad as an example. Um, and I'm glad you brought that because that to me is the number one indicator for me when I look at fruit in a person's life. That's the number one thing I look at is can they do they have close relationships with the people that have been with them the longest. Do they love them? Do they respect them?

42:13 Like if a person has no friends that have been with them long term, that's that's a really that's a red flag% because it's it's like, well, this person has to start over all the time or they can't make a relationship work. And look, I know there's complications. Well, no. I mean, there are complications, but when you have when you're an adult and you still don't have, you know, you know, you're in your 40s or your 50s and you're like, I don't have any friends that I've had for longer than 3 to 5 years, that's really a you problem, right? Like you can't because you get to the point in friendships where you got to pass tests. There's conflict. There's very real humanity. Like like me and you have been friends for five plus years now. Garrett Garrett's been my friend for my whole life. Yeah. And me and Garrett's friendship is a lot is a lot different than yours and mine because there would be a tendency for me and Garrett to have a dishonor for each other cuz we've I mean Yeah.

43:05 I've known him my whole life. He's known me his whole life. Yeah. So, but we're you guys are very much confidants for each other. Yeah. But the more you But the more you know that but that's fruit, right? So the more you know about somebody, the less likely you are to be there for like cuz Okay. So for those that don't know Garrett, which I think most people listen to this would, that's the other podcast I do. He's the coast. He's a former Navy Seal. People elevate Garrett. They put him on a pedestal and you could rip that pedestal out from him one one bar at a time because you you were there for all cuz guess what? He's human. Like not that you ever would do that. He doesn't put himself on a pedestal. No, he doesn't at all. But I'm saying you could you could go back and do like I'm saying here's all the reasons why you shouldn't believe in there's nothing there's nothing that he's hiding now. I just want to be really clear about this. Okay. He is who he says he is. But like you know stuff that he did like like all of us. The whole thing that really bothered me about the about this this cancel culture was like if you could go back in anybody's history and find something they did that was shameful and pull it out that we're going to cancel them. No one stands up to that scrutiny. And that's what I'm saying. You've been friends with them long enough that you were there when he was growing up. And guess what? We all did dumb stuff when we were growing up and made mistakes.

44:05 That's called, you know, learning. And so the so I think that I in terms of my own personal fruit, I think I know how to uh teach people. I think I can do a good job teaching people how to have a lifelong friend because I've had a lifelong friend, you know, and me and Garrett have navigated a lot of different stuff together. But all of that even is because of him and my dad's relationship. Like him and my dad have been best friends for 40 plus years. His dad his dad and your dad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So his dad Scott and my dad been best friends. So So anyway, the reason why I'm saying all this is not cuz like oh I'm this is some kind of defense for even even my dad. It's not even a you can't argue with fruit. No, at the end of the day, you you can argue with how a person says something, what a person does, you know, on and on. You can't argue with fruit. So, when people who, and this is just a way I think life should be approached, there's always going to be people that are do nothing people that sit on the sidelines and say things like what Judas said, that money should have been spent on this.

45:06 And so then first first question to people like that is, is that how you spend your money? Most most of those people know, right? Because we love to we love to, you know, the term that people use in culture is virtue signaling, right? We love to like [clears throat] virtue signal and make it seem like we're on the moral high ground now versus what this other person's on. So, but I don't want to get too bogged down with that. But the question is ultimately what is the fruit that a person has like in their life, in their marriage, like when you look at Yeah. when you look at uh a person like Joel Ostein, right? I mean, he has a responsibility as it relates to kind of how he leads and how he communicates and stuff. I don't know if there's been anybody since Billy Graham that's led that many people to Christ.

45:57 No kidding. I you know, I mean, whatever people, you know, people are going to judge all that. They're going to be like, well, he he doesn't really preach the gospel. He's prosperity. Yeah. Going to say all this stuff. What's the fruit of Jolstein's life? Man, he's a great son. He had a great relationship with his dad. He's got a great relationship with his family. He's got a great marriage. His kids are involved in what he's doing. I mean, must be doing something right. So, like the problem with looking at fruit is fruit is objective, right? Right. And when you look at a per and the reason why I say it's a problem is because it cuts through all of our opinions and preferences and what we like and what we don't like. So, a person who's angry at Joel Ostein because they think he's not theologically deep enough or angry at Forest Frank or anybody, whoever, they you have to be willing if you're going to look at fruit, you have to be willing to let go of your preferences and say, you know what, I like if you look at a church who does like a like large productions like us, it's okay to say, "Hey, I wouldn't do things that way, but that doesn't mean there's no fruit in it."

47:05 Exactly. Right. Yeah. cuz cuz I and I so what we're saying is that the number one what we're saying is look judge the fruit. First of all, I think you have to ask a couple questions. Are you in relationship with this person? If the answer is no, just be quiet. Yeah. Well, probably it's not worth you it's not worth you really carrying that around and feeling like you got to defend the faith to everybody, right? But if you but if you are then looking to judge the fruit number one fruit you should look at who what close relationships have they been able to maintain and sustain and what are the quality of them? Yeah, that's a very easy criteria because and and for those of you if you're going like, "Well, how do I know if it's, you know, my preferences or not?" Here's here's what I always say to people when people are like, "Well, I don't like this." I go, "Hey, what's the best thing that's happened to in your life?" People say, "Oh, my kids, my wife, my job, whatever. Whatever they answer, it doesn't matter." I go, "Did that happen how you thought it would?" Well, no, it didn't. Okay. So, why would you think that you're qualified to be able to say how something should be happening? I mean, I think I think it's it's it's massively valid for us to have, you know, preferences. like we have to vibe with stuff.

48:02 There has to be chemistry. But what I'm saying is when something is working, you might not want to do it. You don't have to do it. But to but to criticize stuff that works makes no sense. Correct. It outside of being egotistical about your own personal revelation that you feel like you have. So someone who thinks in their mind they know the Bible better than Joel Ostein puts themselves in a position where they're they're now higher than Joel Ostein quote unquote because they can criticize what they believe to be his lack of knowledge. Now they don't actually know that but they're determining that based on what they think. So it's okay like that's just reality for us to have that. But if we're going to be uh benefited actually by having a thought process like that, I think that it's helpful to add something on the on the end. And that's ask yourself the question, is there fruit in that though?

49:05 And is there the kind of fruit that uh two things that you want, but most importantly, is there the kind of fruit that God wants there? Right? And if and so people will go, well, I don't I don't I don't I don't think that's the kind of fruit that God wants based on what it's really based on my interpretation. Which we could go like round and round in that a bunch. The thing that I'm just saying to do is if you look at a person's life and look at the quality of their life as you know it, okay, and it's going great, maybe you should follow them and do things the way that they're doing them. Um, at the very least you should respect it, right? Not but what people do is they get hung up on that. That's where I think is a good kind of landing point for what we're talking about without getting cuz this is such a deep thing to me is the number one thing is not to have an opinion about what a person says or even what a person does or say what the motives are. Say the reason why they're doing that. The number one thing is to go is this producing fruit? like is this producing a sustained success?

50:12 And the way to know that it's God's way, this is at least for me in my opinion based on what I know, the way to know that someone is producing fruits God's way is if they're scoring points in every area of life. So if a person's winning in every aspect of life or in a multitude of areas, they're probably doing things in a truthful like in God's way. Because like a person can go out and win physically or they can win financially or whatever and they could just be at like life is like a decathlon, right? In a decathlon you have 10 events and you've got to be able to score points in every you can't you could be the world record 400 meter hurdler and you could lose the decathlon because you don't know how to high jump. Right. Right. And so you've got to be able life is that life is you got to be able to score points in every area not just one area. So the question to me personally of fruit like how well how do I measure a person's fruit? You are around that person before you make a judgment which is again like this is such an idealistic podcast episode but before you make a judgment be around the person enough to know whether or not they actually have fruit.

51:21 Thank you for listening to The Dialog. Make sure to like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com. Or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.