Joshua Keith Craft

0:53 Well, yeah, dude. it's like I'm not I'm not saying this stuff and then and then expecting people to agree with it. Yeah, I have some additional thoughts. This is great. Like so, dude, okay. So, you you have a big idea, which is like I love whenever somebody say like I have a big idea. It's weird, man. I was driving over here and I was like, do I feel like talking about something like not not like your base knowledge of like I know you're deep on theology and philosophy. Like I want to just talk about a big idea or something some kind of thing and you said, "Hey, I've got this big idea." So, I'm glad that I'm glad dude it was the Lord's work. What's your big idea? Cuz people you just said it to me and I love it, but now you got to repeat it cuz we weren't recording. Um Uh hang on. We are recording now, but you just keep texting Oh, no, it's cool. Are we recording right now? Great. Um So, so we going back going back a few episodes, we talked about money and we're probably going to just come circle back around this stuff, you know.

1:46 Probably won't be the last time. Yeah, maybe. Maybe you never know. Yeah. But um so, talking about money and I'm I threw out a thought, you know, which is that I don't believe that a person who doesn't tithe should consider themselves a Christian. That's how I thought that I said it. Yeah. It's probably not exactly what I said. This is where we like insert the actual clip of you being like, "You're going straight to hell." I'm just kidding. Here's the clip. Bam. Boom. That'd be smooth. So, we got to I got to I I'm not a I I don't mind talking about comments. Like I think people pretend like they don't read comments and they don't look at them. I I look at them. Oh, yeah. Um but also for me at least, I don't know how you feel about this, I grew up on the internet. Right. So, snarky comments and mean tweets and all that doesn't like make me upset. Like I don't feel like I don't lay in my bed at night going, "Oh, man, like how am I going to how am I going to uh zing this guy back or how am I going to respond?" I just go, "Oh, yeah, that's the nature of the internet." So, most of the time when I get some kind of funny comment or negative comment or hateful comment, I just respond Well, yeah, you you like you mock the mockers, man.

2:50 I'll mock I'll mock them. I'll make fun of them. Sometimes I'll respond like earnestly, but that this isn't like a podcast talking about comments, but we got a comment which is uh interesting. So, um I'm I'm not going to name this person or whatever. They're they're um they've they found me through you guys through the Impossible Life. And you know what's really interesting is um me and Garrett don't really disagree on a lot, but the way we say things is completely different. guys are very different people. people. And so, people that have come over from the Impossible Life have been like, "This is not like the Impossible Life at all. I don't like it." Uh I wouldn't say that. Some people watch too. a not a lot of people, but some people have and that's great, you know? That's I I love now I I've told people, "Now you see what me and Garrett's friendship is like." I mean, we've been friends we've been friends our whole life and there's a lot of differences between us and maybe if I'm a person's flavor, Garrett might not be their flavor and vice versa.

3:46 guys really are yin and yang, dude. But that's where we work so well together, man. That's where we have great relationships. So, the reason why I say this cuz this person said um you know, I I it stuns me how much I disagree with you and agree with almost everything Garrett says. Which is that's how he knows he's found you know, Garrett's a great So, um that how dare you say that people who don't declare their income and give 10% of to the church aren't Christian. Um and then this is the fourth episode where you've tried to justify your wealth. You reek of greed, the love of money and evil. I'm out. Right? So, this person is no longer I assume no longer a listener. Man, they missed their moment. They actually got the actually got read out on the pod. Well, I'm not to and to me it's not about reading it out or just talking about comments, but but the first thing is like what you say what a person says is always at at the mercy of a person's understanding. Yeah, for sure. And and what I mean by that is not that oh, I was saying something super high-minded, it's I'm not the I think everybody knows this, but I do feel like probably I should say this, I'm not the arbiter of what determines what a Christian is. Yeah.

4:52 Like I'm no I'm not deciding And you don't think you are either. No, and and God's not asking me. Like God's not saying, "Hey, Josh, what do you think qualifies somebody to be Christian?" But I do have an opinion and I do have a certain way that I live my life based on that conviction. So, one of my and this is what I was trying to communicate, but you know, again, when you're in a conversation, you don't communicate Right. like the the exact perfect message. So, I think for all of us it's like what a person hears and what you say are always very different things. Correct. Well, that that is the way Garrett says it since you're talking about it, I'm a sent doesn't mean received. Yeah. And and communication is so amazing to me Mhm. because the fact that human beings can sit and communicate with each other is a is a miracle. Because we're always saying and meaning different things than what the what's received. Yeah. So, I completely understand like that phenomenon. So, I don't see myself as like the person who decides, but I do have a position that says if I'm not personally really if I'm not putting God first, I don't consider myself a Christian because Matthew 6 says where you put your treasure is what's first in your heart.

5:58 Yeah. So, so there's a whole there's a whole deep thought process behind this based on my own biblical research and stuff that I've that I've talked about. Um It's also your temperament though, dude, because you're you're I think if I could sum up all your messages into one line, it would be we don't take this stuff seriously enough. Cuz you're you're like you want to be you're all in. Like you're you're like there's no other place for me to go. This is like I'm following after Christ. Yeah, I'd say I want to be all in. I don't really know how all in I am. I did I mean, I yeah, but yes. I I'm very I'm very serious about it. Yeah, the fact that you say you don't know how how all in you are is because you're examining your own heart. Which where where does God where does God deal with us? In our heart. So, that's exactly my point. And I think where I've watched you get frustrated with people and where your own mercy and development is happening is when you are dealing with people who are one foot in one foot out and maybe they're they're not even being honest with themselves about it.

6:58 Or they or they, you know, my my concern, okay, so this is why this is one of the reasons I think comments don't bother me cuz this isn't a podcast about comments. This is a podcast about really why this podcast exists. And what I feel like the search of my personal life is and what I feel like we should all search for. What a big thing to say, the search of my I I actually really like this. thing is personally, and this is how I feel everybody should be. We should really just want truth over anything else. I should want what's true. So, that's what I'm talking that's the conversation I'm having. Is is this true? Cuz if it's true, there's implications for that. I should apply the truth to my life Mhm. and figure out how [clears throat] to live according to it, right? A lot of people don't have that conviction and I'm I understand that. A lot of people go, "Well, I believe all that's true, but I'm not going to live according to any of it." Which to me is very very dissonant. Well, yeah, how do you do you actually believe it's true? Cuz Yeah. Yeah. So, a person who says so, I'm sitting there in the conversations I'm having and the conversations I want to encourage everybody to have are really about truth. Like what's true? Not what not what do I think? What do I What do I What do I think is fine cuz it's like here's what I think, but the goal of like a dialogue, the goal of me and you sitting down is for me to share with you, "Hey, here's how I think." And you go, "Well, I know something you don't know that makes what you think not very accurate compared to the truth." That's the whole that's the whole reason why we have these discussions.

8:24 Yeah. And what a lot of people are scared of in general is their beliefs being false. So, they don't like their beliefs being questioned. Like Christians especially. So, it's so funny to me. So, Christians don't like being questioned on what they believe a lot of times and the reason why is because the most defensive people are usually the most insecure. Mhm. So, a person who's really defensive about a belief system or a uh a stance that they've taken usually doesn't have a lot of information behind that behind that stance. They've just taken the stance and they they shouldn't they kind of shouldn't have to defend it because of how important it is. It's very it's very interesting. So, I don't mind cuz cuz so many people they put their identity into their beliefs. So, that my beliefs are my identity. So, so people get wrecked. So, for instance in life people go through people believe God's a good God. God has a great plan for my life. They they say that and that when when a person says, "I believe God has a great plan for my life."

9:27 It's true, but also what does great plan mean? Does great plan mean to you that nothing bad's ever going to happen to you? Right? Because if you say God has a great plan for my life, you also have to go is my definition of great the same as God's definition of great? Yeah. And then the tension for all of us is uh when our definition of something and God's is not the same thing. So, that's truth. So, I believe God wants me to have a great life and then the challenge comes in people's life when like a tragedy hits or suffering happens or uh something they believe in a good God who only does good things but then they define good in their own way. Mhm. So God's God exists at this cosmic level where good and bad don't have the same they don't have the same definitions that we have. God is not subject to like that's the that's the biggest kind of that's the biggest debate that like an atheist a a militant atheist or a person who's who's very very deeply defensive of their their atheism or their agnosticism or whatever.

10:35 That's where a person like that that's where they argument about that's where the argument against the existence of God breaks down. Mhm. Because people go like Richard Dawkins you can read this in The God Delusion. He talks about well if God was if God exists he's like this really malicious capricious evil being. Right? Because of all of these things throughout history. Well the the thing that's not being factored in at like a intellectual level in that argument is the definition of good. Right. So we have a way that we define good. We have a way that we define good as a like Westerners as whatever our culture is whatever our environment is. We have a way that we define good based on base morality right which nobody can really say here's where base morality comes from. We all kind of generally generally believe in it. So some people say well evolutionarily uh we talked about that on our Yeah tribalism on the Right it it comes from wanting to be in a tribe. There's all these different theories on that right?

11:36 So the reason why I'm I'm saying all this is because to me the tension point we're always trying to navigate is are God's definition of things and my definitions the same? Cuz if I like there's a there's a really well-known uh scholar of the New Testament his name's Bart Ehrman he's he's very he's genius but he's a atheist and he started as a Christian and then the more he studied the Bible the less he became a Christian. No way. interesting. I have not heard I would love to if Bart if you're listening I'd love to have you on the podcast. Is he still alive? He's he's he's uh he's probably in his 50s maybe late 40s and um he talks about how the reason he stopped believing in God was because he couldn't reconcile unanswered prayers in his life. Huh. So it wasn't about like I read the Bible and then it was I had it and I don't know his story. I'd love to hear his story. I don't haven't really studied him that in-depth.

12:31 Um but hey I have I had something really what you're saying I feel like when you say that and again I don't know him so I could be wrong saying this but what you're saying when you say that is I had a certain definition of what I thought God would should do for me and I had a certain definition of God is a good God and God has a good plan for my life and who God is and that definition didn't line up. Exactly. So I said this before about my my professor in in my theology professor in in college when your beliefs don't line up with the Bible you have a decision to make and that's do you throw out your beliefs or do you throw out the Bible? Right. For me I'm going to throw out my beliefs. Yeah. Right? Most people I understand don't live that way. So so for me my concern and this is I'm giving a really long explanation for this but like when someone doesn't agree with what I say I'm not offended by that. Right. I think probably I could learn something from this person because maybe they have a more truthful belief than me. Like my conversation on tithing I don't want to tithe. I'll just say that like let the record show I don't want to put God first financially.

13:39 Right? And um I have done that my whole life and so people people now I'm a pastor at a church I play a role in a local church so people go oh well you're just trying to get people to tithe cuz you want a paycheck. I mean yeah a part a portion of my income comes from the church. Right. So I guess yes there is uh incentive there for me to get people to give money. These are people who don't know how much you don't want to be a pastor. They and I've I've I've put God first financially since I was a teenager. Yeah. So when I was 16 it was not beneficial for me to take a 10% haircut on my $100 a a week that I was making. Yeah you didn't start this recently being like oh gosh. Yeah so do I do you have to defend all that to somebody? No and you know that's what I'm saying a person who's defensive they're insecure about their beliefs. Right. For me I'm not insecure about this. I don't mind talking about it cuz my number one conversation with people who don't like believe in something like tithing is please prove me wrong.

14:36 Right. Cuz if you prove me wrong Yeah you get 10% back. and your beliefs are more truthful guess what we're both not putting God first man. Right. So my thing is let's have a let's have a conversation about truth but also you know the deal the deal for me is um I said this in the first episode where we talked about money and this isn't even a this isn't a podcast about again this isn't a podcast about money or about comments it's about why this podcast exists because the reason why I'm hesitant to have these kind of conversations is cuz people respond that way to these conversations. So instead of listening to and this is what happens I think in all of our life when we really decide to search for truth the people that we talk to really become important because there's a lot of people that instead of listening to your search for truth they think you're trying to defend uh a flawed belief. Right. And I'm searching for truth and I really want to help people navigate that search and I really want to ask like really big questions but what it does what truth does is truth challenges us right? Like truth sets us free but it also hurts us and and kills our sacred cows. Well your your big idea though was what you had said was you said what frustrates you the most is a clue to what your gift is like why God's put you on the earth and one of the things that frustrates you Yeah we were talking about that before we started.

15:59 your big idea. I was hoping you'd say it but I'll just say it for you. Did I say it right? Yeah I think so I have this belief that um you know if you ask yourself this question if there was one problem in the whole world or one problem in my whole life like zoom in on your life. Mhm. If there was one problem that God was going to guarantee like you had a magic wand and you could wave the magic wand and the problem could be solved what problem would that be? Right. For all of us the answer would be different. Like some people would be like cure for cancer some people would say well end poverty in the world some on and on. Some people would be like I wish that my spouse was different or I wish this for my kids. yeah. Right? And when you answer that question it's probably a problem that you're deeply frustrated about or deeply troubled by and to me that's the on a level that's the revealing of what you're put on the earth to do. Like the thing you're put on the earth to the question you're put on the earth to answer the problem you're put on the earth to solve. It's not that you'll ever solve the solve the problem.

17:02 It's that God has made all of us uniquely individualized for who we are and we have gifts and talents and abilities and things. So then then you get this God-given emotion called frustration where you're constantly frustrated about something. Capture that God-given emotion called frustration. my that's what my dad says. My dad says God frustration is a God-given emotion. Praise the Lord. So you get this God-given emotion and man I'm 38 now and um I thought that the stuff I was frustrated by in life would change. And there are some things that have changed but most of like most of what I'm frustrated by today at 38 I have a different way of communicating it and articulating it but most of what I'm frustrated about today is the same kind of stuff I was frustrated about in my 20s when I was a teenager when I was a kid growing up in church.

17:55 Is the same kind of it's the same kind of stuff it's just I've become better at making finer distinctions and being able to talk about it. And so one of those things for me is uh it's not about having debates in comments. There's this there's a spirit of the age so to speak where uh where people don't attack the thought process they don't attack the position they don't attack the argument they just attack the person. Like it's just normal for ad hominem attacks to take place. Like this you know this person I don't know what their interaction has been with pastors they've obviously been around a level of corruption. But a person who doesn't know me has never been around me we've never had a like a conversation for them to say you reek of greed and love of money because I'm saying what I'm saying about tithing well that's a huge that's a that's an ad hominem attack it's character judgment right?

18:55 It's a big it's a big jump. Which you know I get it cuz like there's a lot of pastors who you could look at and go man that person is unethical or immoral. But we think we're in the position to to decide what the motivation is for what a person's saying. And there are a lot of people that say things for a million different reasons. But the problem for me one of the one of my biggest frustrations that I exist in the world that I wish I could solve is the problem for me is that people aren't willing to talk about the argument they're not willing to talk about the position they're just going to talk about the person and whether whether or not they like they're going to talk about the person's motivations for saying what they're saying which is an ad hominem attack. But don't you think that that but they do this all the time it it it sorry finish your thought. No it's culture that's what I'm saying it's cultural now for me to for me to it's cultural now for me to hear something I dislike jump right in the comments. Yeah. And or hear something I like, jump right in the comments and start defending it. Right.

19:57 Right? When we do that, a lot of times, we're not discussing the merit of the position. So, my my fresh the thing that I'm trying to solve that I feel like is the problem God's put me on the earth to solve is helping people understand that really it's about it's about ascertaining truth. Mhm. And if we're going to discuss, like that's why, you know, that's why this podcast exists that I hope, you know, me and you've been texting today, but that I hope that we can get like some It'd be cool to have some really big-time guests on that I just completely disagree with their positions. I I'm I I think we will start working towards that because I think you're ready for it now. Yeah, the goal of the discussion is for us to talk about the merits of the position and the truthfulness of the argument. It's not I like that's what I'm concerned with. So, people can disagree with me. They can say, "Well, I don't like you. You have this motive.

20:50 You have this." And that's And that's become the problem to me is not is is not someone doing that for me and that hurts my feelings and don't you know I'm a human being. The problem with that for me is we're still not talking about whether or not I'm right. Yeah. Like Like Like I understand, you know, that you don't like the argument. Like I understand that you think that I have these reasons for saying it. But we're But we're not talking about whether or not the position that I take has fruit. What we're talking about is whether or not you like me. Yeah. But this has been going on for This is not just a recent thing. I'm I I remember learning in school about I think it was uh JFK and Richard Nixon and they had this debate and Richard Nixon was really hot and sweaty. I think he was even sick. And so he did not show up on camera looking very good.

21:41 Was the first Yeah, it's the first televised presidential debate. And so it actually damaged his never really been on TV before. He was nervous. It damaged his candidacy massively because people read into that that he was untrustworthy. And that's what you hear all the time. Well, you know, I mean, he also was though at the end of Yeah, I mean, look, it turned out they were right. You know what I mean? But But But we say that now laughing, but when you This is how people make a lot of decisions. Like, "Hey, this is the person for a presidency and they're going to give all their policies." Donald Trump right now rubs a lot of people the wrong way. And you could make arguments that some people would never accept. Like, "Hey, there's been a lot of things that have happened where you can say maybe he got it right." And you could say that about any person. There's things that they got right. There's things they got wrong. But But for a lot of people because they just despise the way that he operates. Yeah. He's They're already It's a bridge too far. Well, it's the difference. I mean, you know, to me it's the difference between civics and politics, right? There's a difference between civics and politics.

22:36 Everything is not about civics now, it's about politics. And really in America, I feel like we should be about civics. We should be about Can you define those so people can ethics and American values and what does it mean to really build America? And what does it mean to be American? Like Yeah. There was a um uh There was a thing I read. I can't remember when I read it, but 35% of people under the age of I think it was 35% of people under the age of 30 believe the First Amendment is dangerous. Oh, man. Because you could use your free speech to harm another person. Oh, jeez. So, why? Because the Because the conversation's been politicized and really in in in in a in a country like America what built America was a lot of people having a lot of discussions about things that they really strongly disagreed on. Right. And we've lost the ability We've built a world now Yeah. where no one's ever wanted to be in those conversations. Like I don't say this going, "Yeah, I really want to sit down with someone I really disagree with and try to have a civil discourse.

23:42 I was trying to think of the word. I was to have a civil discussion with him. Like I don't want to I'm a pro I'm a pro-life person. Like I think murder's always bad. I think abortion's murder. I don't really want to sit on and have a conversation with someone who's as pro-choice as I'm pro-life. Add that to the list. We're getting Man, you're giving me all the list of guests. But in having that conversation, you know what we're going to talk about? Yeah. We're not going to talk about the positions. We're going to talk about the problem. Yeah, they're not going to look at you and go, "I don't like you. You don't You You probably don't even care about me." They They could, but But that would be But that's not even a substantive discussion with someone who So, that discussion, to use that as an example, is such a hot hot-button topic. And there is There is a There is truth that we should land on there as it relates to like a human being. However, Yeah. what we're talking about is what a lot of people do is they want to talk about the position they've taken, not the actual problem. And to me, the thing is we should just talk about the problem. So, the problem What's the problem that um And this is a tough question for someone to answer. Like what's the problem that abortion's trying to solve? Well, I want to be able to have the enjoyment without the consequences.

24:55 Well, there's that. There's also like, you know, abortion's trying to solve a lack of education. Abortion's trying to solve uh people that are pro-choice are trying to solve uh a lack of opportunity. There's a lot of young women that lack opportunity. They lack education. People don't teach them how to live morally, ethically. So, there's big problems here. Right? So, what we do is we just develop these really simple positions on an issue that is not a simple issue. Right. Cuz the question You know, the question remains, right? Of like the pro-life argument. So, if you just go and I'm a pro-life guy. I'm never not pro-life. But the question you have to answer is what do you do with an unwanted child? Yeah. So, socially, in society, what's what's interesting and we can move past this topic, but what's interesting to me is you have a lot of Most conservatives are pro-life. Right?

25:49 Conservatives are also small government. So, you can't say, "Well, we're going to go pro-life and and a person has to have a kid, but what's their social safety net?" Well, then the government has to come in and then you all of a sudden stop being a conservative cuz you're like, "Well, the government has to take care of these kids now." Right. So, cuz it's a That's a That's a dilemma. That's not something you just sit down and go, "Well, what do you believe? What do I believe? Well, here's what I believe and it's a really simple answer to the problem." When you start simplifying the answers, you've now arrived at a place where it's really not about truth. Cuz truth when you start trying to introduce introduce truth to something, it becomes very complex. You start talking about tithing, to get back to that, and people have just decided where they land on an issue that they've never researched and they've never learned about. Like you said You said to me about this particular commenter. And if the this guy's listening, like you said to me we should have him on the podcast, which is I'll invite him right now on the podcast. But the problem is I hope I If you come on the podcast, if you're listening to this and you respond, you can send me an email, send me a DM, send Nick a DM, and we'd love to have you on the podcast. The The My My encouragement to you and challenges up front, make sure you have a intellectual, logical defense Yeah. or ability to discuss that because my goal of having you on the podcast is not to debate whether or not I'm I'm greedy.

27:11 Right. on The goal of having you on the podcast would be to talk about whether or not tithing is biblical. Right. And whether or not tithing constitutes following Jesus well. So, what what you're saying is that you would be using the Bible as the source of truth. And that's what I think is so interesting about some of these conversations, man, because when you have a different source of truth, I I don't Like that's why I'm I'd be really interested to get some of these people on here because if you're saying, "Look, God created life and life is precious." And someone's like, "There is no God." Man, where do you Like where do you land on that? You know what I mean? Cuz like that that's Well, that's when you start to go, "Well, we probably disagree on the source of truth." Right. Which 100% you do. But But at least you're having that discussion. Right. Because as Pontius Pilate said, "What is truth?" And that that is that That's a question that has challenged humanity since we could think a thought, right? Little fun fact about this podcast. That was the episode we recorded for an hour that will never see the light of day because I was like, "Let's tackle it."

28:04 And then we just like walked around and I think we're still out there somewhere. Well, I mean, I'm writing a book about it. The whole I'm I'm in the process right now of putting this book proposal together. And one of the biggest conversations we're having So, here's the Here's the dilemma. So, people think A lot of people in life are asking the wrong questions, right? There's three huge questions we got to answer in life. What is truth? Who am I? And what's the meaning of my life? Right? And really in that order. Yeah. So, the problem is most people do not ever ask the question like what is truth? What do I believe to be true? And where do I get that belief from? Right. And that's a We did a Like you said, we did an episode that's never going to see the light of day because of how how all over the place the discussion of truth is. It just It just is. For even for people that agree, me and you sitting here, for people that agree on the same source of truth.

28:59 So, So, that's That's like a huge challenge that we all have to figure out how to navigate cuz cuz the thing about life, you know, and this is a just a belief that I have. The thing about life Life's way more about questions than answers. Right. So, we go We go through life and we think we have an answer when really life is way more about how you decide to answer and your answer changes throughout your life cuz your answer changes as you learn more truth. Ideally in your life, the more you interact with truth, the more truthful your actions become. So, you change what you believe based on how you interact with truth. Right. Well, for so many people that's a really uncertain way to live. Like you're telling me I could be wrong. Yes, I'm telling you you could be wrong. But But think about what you said. I think this is really interesting cuz you said that there's three questions people are asking. What is truth? Who am I? And what does my life mean? Well, those questions are Like you said they need to be asked in that order, but I think they're in extreme I think they're linked cuz what did you earlier said?

29:52 You said people couldn't handle the truth because they're insecure. And this is something I actually wanted to talk about this and I didn't think we were going to come around to this. We never know where we're coming That's why I so appreciate that. That's I like I said I was listening to our podcast on the way here. I was like man yeah we really do Rina was talking to me about she's like man you guys really do just turn off and I'm like we do. It's like it's like we could be called the left turn podcast. Um but the the actual uh what I what I've really been observing a lot and there's plenty of psychology to back this up. This is not just like hey I had an idea. We people the reason people don't want to have their beliefs challenged is because what makes you feel good is certainty Josh. Right? Like if if you have a job and they came to you and said hey we're going to give you a 20% pay increase for the rest of your life and here's your starting salary. For a lot of people Guaranteed. Oh that'd be amazing. Like that would be the best thing. And you know what's so funny about human nature? You'd still be unhappy at some point. But that's that's not the point of this point what I'm saying. We our brains are wired to make sense of things. Like we you know we need to know To try to make sense of things for sure. Yeah because that's because it serves us. Look I need to know what's threatening. I need to know how to get food. I need to know how to get my needs met you know all those things. So you people are so as a result we constantly look for patterns right?

31:07 That's what separates human from other animals is like we have excellent pattern recognition. It's how we saw the seasons and all the good stuff. I mean I think we can all agree on that that pattern recognition is important. Well the problem with with just really relying on needing to have certainty is there's some things that you could be wrong about but they make you feel good. And so if if you come in and poking holes in what makes me feel good cuz I've had my world shattered where somebody says something like I'm doing the right thing. Yeah and somebody comes in and does it. Dude it is a very raw Yeah like how dare you? And that's what this guy had said. He said how dare you say this because it's like how dare you question how I'm living my life. Yeah because you put touched on something that this guy could be something that he felt really good about and now for a moment he's having to face and go what if I'm wrong? Maybe I'm not. Does he think if I knew him would he think I'm not a Christian? I [clears throat] mean yeah but see this this need for certainty. This is where I've seen this play out in like lots of different ways. We're talking about food and water and you know things that everybody would agree with. Well here's where I think it gets here's where it gets really tricky and why we see so much tribalism right now. Josh I'm a conservative you know that. I voted for Trump multiple times and but at the same time I don't love the guy. Like I I've never owned I've never put a sign in my yard. I've never owned a piece of Trump merchandise. I never will.

32:21 Yeah now that's called being MAGA. So like you're not MAGA. You're Trump but you're not MAGA. Right exactly. But but here's but here's the but what makes it easy for somebody is once they hear that about me all the things that they think about Trump or Trump supporter I now get pushed into that and vice versa. Oh you supported yeah this time it would be Harris or Biden. Well you're just a blue haired crazy liberal. Now I know lots of people who support Biden and Harris and absolutely despise Trump. I can have a really good conversation with them. Now with some of the people I work with that that has not been able to be an area we can touch on because it's so raw. But what I think is so funny is I like I've had people disown me as a friend because of my my political voting and I'm going dude you know me. You've known me since we were 12 years old. Like and and you're sitting there going cuz I had a message from a friend they said I can't be friends with you because uh uh anyone that supports Trump I don't see how they can't be a racist and so I can't be friends with you. I'm going you've literally known me since I was in eighth grade.

33:24 What what tell me about all my racist behavior because I'm not. So please lay this out and I just thought it was the stupidest thing. But when you start to realize that people need certainty it's a lot easier for me to just go this person's bad because once you're bad I don't have to listen to you. Yeah well like you know I think that's what I'm saying about culture you know is now with the world of comments and the uh the just the level of you know intensity and anger that people have and the level of um you know how divided things are and how everything's polarized now. There's no such thing as gray area. You should see my sunglasses were polarized now it's life. Yeah it doesn't exist. Yeah. Um we've now created a world where we approach all of our interactions that way. We're like I'm going to be super naive about you as a person. Like I'm you're not a whole person. We're really like human beings are very complex and we have a lot of hypocrisy and and contradiction. I'm trying to put you in my box. Right?

34:24 Yeah. And really that's the way we all live. Like you know Paul talks about that that the things I want to do I don't do the things I don't want to do I do. Like it's all the sin that lives in me. I mean there's there's there's we have a better nature. We have good hearts. We have good intentions and we do wrong things. I mean all of that's true for all of us right? But what we do is we simplify someone down and we become so naive about them where you're either a good person or a bad person and the truth is you're just a mix of all these things. One yeah. Right? But when you don't agree with that or when you don't approach people that way and you have this naive view of life where it's like right or wrong black or white. And there are things that are that way but and and we're we're having those conversations on the podcast. I mean we've we just a few a few times ago a few recordings ago we talked about principles and preferences and we did a whole episode where I was like I don't think I landed right on that on and on cuz it's like we're always trying to figure out as human beings we're always trying to figure out what's a non-negotiable for me. Yeah. Right? Like what is really like a heaven or hell issue?

35:24 Cuz everything can't be a heaven or hell issue. Do do you think it's laziness man or do you think it's like it's just the the world that we've built. think it's cuz we're so busy that we we don't put time into things that that we should? I think people are people are tribal. People are like naturally like attracts like. People are just tribal for a million different reasons. They're socioeconomically tribal. though? It's just but that's but that's if you go down to the root the root causes are like what's the root cause of all the evil in the world? Just the sin of humanity. Right. Just pride man. Yeah selfishness. Right? So like the greatest pain that we cause other people usually comes out of our own selfishness. We all we all know these things to be true and the problem is we're navigating you know to me the complexity is in our nature. Right. So like what people do is they with talking about certainty is they go I'm going to eliminate complexity out of my life and you can't.

36:22 If you want to be like if you want to be a person who lives according to truth you can't eliminate complexity. You have to learn how to embrace it. Right. You have to learn how to go you know what this is a complex thing and I'm not really certain. Like I was talking to someone today before we did this podcast that their biggest challenge right now that they're having they've gone through some some tremendous challenges in their life but the biggest challenge in their the biggest challenge they're having right having right now is they're like I can't believe this stuff that's in my stories in my story. Like I can't believe that I just have I'm having trouble believing that my life is actually my life. I feel like I'm I'm an observer cuz they've been through so much hard stuff. Yeah. That they're like I I don't want this to be my life. I don't want this to have been my experience. Huh. And and at the and that's a person who's gone through really a lot of pain.

37:14 And the reason why that is is because that pain makes their life complex. Yeah. Right? Like I just want my life to be good or bad. I don't want to have a mix. I want to be a kid again. Have it simple. just want yeah and we all do man. Like I look at my kids and I feel bad that they're going to grow up because it's like man one day you know one day you'll realize not everyone's nice. And one day someone will bully you and one day someone will tell you that you're ugly and You'll punch them in the throat. Or or like you'll come home and you'll be so sad or like you'll have to deal with people taking advantage of you and you'll start to see the evil that's in the world and that'll like that'll like scar you and wound you a little bit and like you know no one who has a kid sits there and goes man I like I can't wait till my kids experience all the crap that I've had to experience. Yeah. And you live your life and you try to help make sure and this is this is fundamentally bad parenting. Okay but I understand it cuz you live your life and you're like I want to make sure my kids never go through any kind of pain and they never hurt. And that's impossible because of the nature of life for sure.

38:14 So so we can't avoid that. What I can teach my kids what to do what I can teach them to do is be ready for that. So all of like in our life right? We're always trying to engineer out complexity cuz complexity is chaotic and complexity is hard and complexity is sometimes there's not a right answer. Sometimes there's only a right answer in a certain situation with a certain person like at a certain time. And so well then oh my gosh how do we navigate that? So the way a lot of people navigate that is they just they just land in a place they're like I need everything to be simple. I'm a good guy you're a bad guy. Exactly. My thoughts are good your thoughts are bad and I just need this to be true because I like you're saying I need certainty which is a lot of Yeah. Yeah and a lot of times certainty for people is just another word for for simplicity. I need my life to be simple. Well the problem is no matter how much you want that life is not going to be simple man.

39:05 Yeah. Your life is going to be complex. The more you live the more relationships you have the more decisions that you make the more you experience the more complex your beliefs become. Like I remember one time I was I was leading our internship and we had a we I did a comparative religions class for a while. And so we I would take people uh which their parents would get really mad at me but I'd take these college kids and I'd go we're going to go sit down with a Buddhist monk for a whole day and hear everything that they believe. And the level what these people were mostly challenged by these these uh these college kids is um the level of conviction that these people had cuz they thought as a Christian we have the truth. Oh, yeah. But like you sit down you talk to a we sat down and talked to a Muslim Imam. He's talking about the miracles that he's seen. Yeah. Verified that. Verified miracles. He's talking about how seriously people take Islam. And then we go back and the conversations I'm having with these with these with these college students are man, how much does that challenge?

40:05 So this how dare they So the So the response is how dare they have the same level of conviction about their beliefs that we do. Don't they know that we're It's like they don't know and in their experience right they've seen God. They've experienced the divine. Like you go talk to a Buddhist monk, you go talk to someone like a like a Hindu that's a really practicing it. They're like this is this has changed my life for the better. All the stuff you'd hear in like a church service. It's So how do you reconcile that? Well, the way I reconcile it So I'm not just trying to like leave people hanging and make people go oh my gosh like Yeah, you know nothing. All right, podcast number or or like Oprah like a syncretist everything's true and everything's God. It's the Bible talks about this in the book of book of Acts that people with human philosophies and human religions and human thinking have always tried to feel their way towards God. So everyone's feeling their way into spirituality on some level and sometimes they do interact with God in a way that we don't Like why would God do and I've read documented stories of people in like Islam for instance that's experiencing miracles that would can only be attributed to God and people go well, the devil does miracles too. I don't really know that's not I don't want to get into that. That's for other podcasts with other people. But the devil and God don't play in the same playing field. The devil's a created being. So if the devil does miracles, it's cuz God's allowing him to do them. Yeah. Cuz the devil has to ask permission. You can read that in Job. So that's Some people disagree with that.

41:35 But But the reason why I'm saying that is cuz what what does that mean? What that means to me in my kind of this world that I've built in my mind is well, what that can only mean is that Muslims are created in God's image. These people God has God wants to reach them just like he wants to reach me and he'll use miracles and hints of the divine even in a in a in a thing that's completely antithetical to Christianity, he'll use that to guide them into a revelation of who he is. I believe that God could do that. I believe in that possibility. Now is it Is it absolutely true? I don't know, man, cuz I'm not a god. So what I embrace in the context of this this world of religions is the complexity of how God reaches individuals. Yeah. Cuz all of us are completely different. All of us have like we speak completely different language and what I mean by that is that the language and the makeup of my brain and the way I process and my my spirit and my soul is there's no one that's like me.

42:35 Right. So God speaks to me the way I need to be spoken to that wouldn't that doesn't work for another person. Right. Right? So God doesn't speak to everybody in the same way in the same methodology. We're not all raised in the same culture. We're not all surrounded by the same information. And so you can't and you can't create a world where that's true. Yeah. Thank you for listening to The Dialog. Make sure to like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.