Joshua Keith Craft

0:53 Oh, that book is uh almost a year. I mean, I started in August of 2025, so that's what, 9 months? I don't know. Dude, so you spent nine at How many words? Cuz you told me at one point the word count, and it was insane. Uh it was over 100,000. I have a I have two documents now, so I have a word one document that is all the stuff I took out, which is about you know, 50,000 words, and then I have a doc the document that's the actual book that I ended up with, and that's like 70,000. So, I mean, a 120,000 page 120,000 word book is like a 500-page book. Okay. So, hang on. Let let's catch everybody up first. It's just a lot of thoughts. No, but let's catch everybody up because I find this really interesting. So, lots of like when we were younger, man, like writing a book, if you wrote a book, it was like, "Whoa." It was a big deal. Now, because of Amazon self-publishing, pretty much anybody can can write a book, but there's a difference between being able to write a book and then actually having success with it. Now, I've been talk Obviously, you've written books and published them and sold them.

1:54 Your dad has. Um and I was recently with John Bevere who's written quite a few books and sold millions and millions of them. And so what what every person I talked to and our friend Britney our mutual friend Britney is is writing one right now. And everybody I talk to talks about how much it's like a it is a laborious task. Right? Like I mean to what you just said. So you basically wrote if my math is serving me correctly 130,000 words. Like did you even did you like outline this or how do you I mean cuz I remember talking to you and you just I felt like you were like deep in the forest and I wasn't sure you were going to make it to the other side, you know? Like how did you even start that? Well, I thought I you know, I thought it was really interesting what what John said on your guys' podcast when you all had him on for like the 300th episode right or whatever. Is it the 300th episode? I can't It's 300th, yeah. Yeah. uh I we just had uh two more kids. So I'm you know, we're doing this and I'm I'm pushing through my brain. I've a lot of brain fog.

2:51 Con- contact yeah, context is not your friend right now. You just know stuff happened. And the funny thing is right after you know, I'm like up up all night all that stuff. But um Father of five by the way. Father of five, yeah. Let's just clap that. Well done, man. That's uh it. You're a family of seven now, bro. There are legit many cars that will never service your family. Every restaurant for the rest of my life I'll need a reservation. I can't just walk in and go eat somewhere. Um just with me. Automatic gratuity as well? Probably. That's true. I didn't think about that. So anyway, Oh man. Okay, sorry. Yeah, hit me with the book the book designer. Yeah, so so I heard him talk about his his process and um So he doesn't have much of a process? Yeah, I mean he sits down and just goes, "Okay, well I'm going to write a book and God's going to kind of lead me through that." And for me it's like a really similar thing. Like I I It's the same way I write messages or really have created stuff. I mean I never saw myself being a writer, right? So I never was like I mean I did I was better at English than I was at math in school. So I liked that better, but I wasn't like I wasn't like uh I mean I'd get B's on English assignments. It wasn't like oh my gosh, this is the best essay or you know, so a lot of people that are writers I feel like are good writers early. I I wasn't really that way. So so I never thought I'd write. Anyway, the story I'm I'm sure we I think we talked about it on the podcast before, but if not, the story is I I'd done a series of messages in Mighty Men and talked about these connections like is my first book The Way to Live.

4:19 Yeah. Great book. about all these connections between biblical thinking and stoic philosophy and it was just kind of like a zoom in. And I didn't intend on it being a book and my dad was like you need to turn this into a book. I'm like I've never written a book before. He's like just write a book. So I took the message notes and I turned them into a book and that that kind of like which is an interesting thing that God does, you know, it kind of unlocked this thing that I was obviously put on the earth to do and that's express through writing. Like I I wouldn't say in my life I've ever really been I've never really seen myself as a great communicator. I wasn't like a gifted talented great speaker. I've really worked a lot. I worked really hard to be a good communicator. I've worked really hard to structure communication to learn how to communicate with an audience and different stuff like that. So I never really saw myself doing that. So now that's how God's using me, which is really interesting. So God's speaking a lot. I kind of get paid to think. I do a lot of coaching and then I write books, right?

5:20 So I I write my books, but I've probably written them eight or nine books at this point. I mean some of them have been ghost written. Some of them are books like I wrote a I wrote a book in 2021. I we did a series in the church called Elephant in the Room. That was about critical critical race theory and DEI and all that. I wrote a whole book about it and then I had it edited and I was going to self-publish it and then I was just like yeah, I don't want to do this. So I just the book's just literally sitting in my hard drive. That's like the ultimate Josh Craft thing to do. Like you get right there and you're like, "You know what? I'm going to I I actually don't want this." When I uh I hate marketing so much. I mean, I love that you're a marketer cuz I I It's not that I hate it. It just it feels like work. It's a lot of work. Marketing is so much work, you know? And it's not exciting. I love the process of creating more than like getting the creation out to other people. So Yeah, I I think the reason you hate marketing, sorry I'm going to interject here, is because you're very um independent thinking and I don't think you like to be constrained. And like the very first thing you do in marketing is you start with a target market, right?

6:24 And you identify. And so by definition, you now have to serve their needs, which is like a form of like I've got all these thoughts and ideas and this place I want to go. And it's like, "Well, yeah, but if people don't want that, you need to go here instead." And that is inherently like you're That's just not how you're wired. Yeah. And um me and you've had a lot of great conversations about that. It's like people are like, "What's your target market?" I'm like, "I don't know, whoever wants to be, right?" Right. That's That's not actually Like I'll just say this as a disclaimer, it's not actually good to be that way. Like it's actually really bad because um and we've talked about Erwin McManus and my relationship with him on this podcast before. So I've said similar things to him that I've said to you. Like, "Hey, I don't care about this. I don't care about marketing. I don't care if anybody reads my book." He's like, "What's wrong with you?" Like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "So God's given you this message and you believe it can change people and you don't care if it gets to them?" I'm like, "Well, I mean, I care." And so he told me this recently. He told me this a few months ago. He said, you know, he said, "You're really great knowing what you want to say."

7:25 And I He goes, "That's so important and that's 50% of the battle." He said, "What you're not great at that you need to work on is knowing what people need to hear." Hmm. Man, that's some wisdom right there. There's this balance in our life. In In every aspect Like everything really in life is about communication. Like like people Uh people talk about leadership and they say, "Well, everything rises and falls on leadership." Right? But what does leadership rise and fall on? Leadership rises and falls on communication. Like if you're a parent, it doesn't matter how good of a parent you think you are, it matters how well you communicate that to your kids. You know, like if I'm not It's not even empathy. It's like if I'm not aware of what my kids need to hear at the right time, I could say the right thing to my kids and and ruin their life. I mean, there's a lot of people that probably listen to this podcast or people living in the world that have gotten so much truth and the truth has destroyed them because there's no love in it, right? So, understanding communication is understanding the balance between grace and truth, right? And that's what love is is it's like me figuring out, how do I tell the truth but tell it in a way?

8:31 And we've talked about that on a few episodes. How do I tell the truth but then tell it in a way that a person can receive it. So, for me, I'm really good at telling the truth. I'm good at being this really authentic communicator, but I'm not good at considering what what people need to hear or the or the journey that uh people are on. And so, right now in my life, I think this has been one of my biggest lessons to learn as a communicator is I can feel like there's this nobility and oh, I don't care about marketing. I don't care about selling books. It's like you should actually care about that not because it's about your career and about making money, but everybody who buys a book, that's a person who's impacted, you know? Yeah. So, if you if you create this esoteric weird world that no one wants to live in, it could change someone's life, but the packaging is so poor that they don't care about it, right? And people do in life, they judge books by their cover.

9:24 Yeah, for sure they do. Like what I always think about, if you go to Netflix, man, think about how many millions of dollars have been spent on that title, and you're making a decision based on a thumbnail. It's like that's what YouTube is. and a and a two-sentence description of what's the what the If you even choose to read that, because most of the time you just skip past you like you look at the title, you look at the picture and you go, "Mhm." And that's when you think about that, that's actually crazy. That's what like YouTube has been so amazing. Like the MrBeast, he's you know, owned the game because he figured out thumbnails. And now everybody's thumbnails look exactly like his. I have a friend, Grant Horvat, he's a big YouTube golf guy. And he told me one time that the amount of you would not believe the amount of time that these guys spend on the thumbnail for a video. Yeah. He's like, "The thumbnail of the video is everything." They they spend so much time. So, it's like you wouldn't think that, right?

10:16 Right. And so, what people do, like people like me, is they go, "Well, it just shouldn't be that way." Yeah. Like it shouldn't be that way, so I'm not going to do that, which means no one's going to watch your stuff. Like Right. No one's going to listen to it, cuz it really is just the way that people work, right? So, it's one thing to have a really great message and have a lot of really good stuff to say. It's another thing to package that in a way that people who aren't familiar with you and don't really have any kind of vested interest in hearing what you have to say, will want to hear that, right? Yeah. So, Well, cuz cuz you you have a One of the things I love about you and I want to point this out. I think because you have such a I mean you you said it, but I want to highlight it. You you are such an authentic Like you have such a need for authenticity, and so you're very authentic to people almost to the point of a fault where people like, "You can't say that on stage." You're like, "Look, I'm going to be real with people." Yeah. Yeah, oversharing was the thing that you heard a lot, but it's because you have a need for authenticity. I actually think that's what allows you to connect with a lot of people, cuz I don't think you've ever gone on stage and said or done something, and people are like, "I don't know if I believe this guy." Cuz you'll go up there and be like, "Look, I don't even want to be a pastor."

11:22 Like you know, and like nobody would recommend that you say that. Yeah, or when we talk you know, we talked just recently about uh the prove me wrong thing. Like you I you know, a person can be like, "I don't agree with all that about tithing and you're just trying to enrich yourself." It's like, "No, dude, I don't want to give either." Well, you shouldn't say that. Like as a pastor, like you should you should be like, "No, in my heart I want to be I don't want to obey God. I don't want to." Like, you know, your your heart's wicked. I believe that about myself, right? So, um I'm I'm I'm really I'm really become comfortable in my life being like, "Oh, yeah, I was wrong or I am wrong" or being pointed out, you know, having having my flaws or my issues pointed out. And like what Socrates talked about was if someone proved him wrong or if someone pointed out his flaws that he was served by that because it made him aware of what he needed to change. Yeah, for sure.

12:15 so I I you know, Ken Blanchard said, "My dad raised me with this with this um quote, this understanding." Ken Blanchard said, "Bre- feedback's the breakfast of champions." Yeah. So, I think a lot of people are just really bad at like you get feedback all through your life. You get feedback from all different sources. Um and people are really bad at receiving it. And most of the time for most people, by the time, you know, by the time some really big negative consequence happens, they've had 15 chances to fix it. And they just haven't known, right? Like Like I have this this is a long this is like a long train of thought, but um we started this by talking about what my writing process was, but Yeah, feedback's an interesting I'm kind of this is what I love about talking to you cuz we didn't even mention going to feedback, but I'm actually I've got a number of things going through my head to ask you. So, keep going cuz I I think this I think feedback and identifying identifying it, identifying who's giving it to you, and then like using it appropriately is a massive unlock. Um to you cuz I've got Yeah.

13:20 Well, you know, I'll I'll do this really quick. So, um in the book of Proverbs, the Bible says that wisdom shouts aloud in the streets, right? It's available everywhere. The the the Bible the Bible says if you lack wisdom, ask God for it and he'll give it to you freely. It's the only thing that the Bible says God just gives us an infinite supply of an infinite supply of wisdom. So, I've always been like, if wisdom was more available, why aren't more people wise? And even you know, especially Christians. I mean, so many Christians are just unwise people. They're they're just they're just not wise. So, Yeah. Um so, I've just walked through this journey of like, okay, what what what what is Proverbs say? Proverbs says one of the things Proverbs says and I'm I'm like drawing this really quick and because I have a whole longer thing. I'm probably going to write a book about this. So, I have a whole longer thing about it. There you go. go like, how come more people aren't wise if wisdom shouts aloud in the streets?

14:14 And that's because wisdom like the the book of Proverbs says that it's a wise person loves correction and it's stupid to hate correction. Right? Yeah. So, so the Bible says that wisdom comes in comes through correction, right? So, Proverbs 1, Solomon's talking and he says, "Obey my instructions and listen to my warnings" basically. And then you'll be and then you'll be wise. So, feedback is the the pathway to wisdom in your life. Feedback is how you become a wise person is by being correctable. And the biggest problem that most people have is they're really really bad at receiving correction. And they and they have to be So, it's stupid to hate correction. So, if you hate when people give you feedback, as a business owner, as a person, as a spouse, uh even as a parent. Like if my kids give me a lot of feedback on how my parenting is affecting them, right? So, if I am really bad at receiving feedback, I'm going to be stupid. I'm going to do stupid stuff.

15:15 Right. And the danger of that is not just oh, it's stupid to hate correction. Like it's one thing for us to be stupid. Being stupid is you're ignorant, you don't know you're ignorant, right? Um or well, I'll change that. There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Stupidity is when you're ignorant on purpose. So, ignorance is ignorance. Ignorance is like I didn't know that was the right thing. And then someone pointed out to me what the right thing was. Stupidity is someone pointed out to me what the right thing was and then I just decided to be ignorant anyway. So, Proverbs Proverbs makes this distinction that uh if you love if you love correction, you're wise. If you're it's stupid to hate correction. Mhm. And there's all these verses I could give. I've I've talked about this like a few times in different in different rooms. So, what's the difference between stupidity and ignorance? Ignorance is when I don't know something and I do and I do something that I shouldn't do, right? Stupidity is when I know that I shouldn't do something and I just decide to do it anyway.

16:15 Right. So, when you get feedback when a person gets feedback on what they're doing wrong and they keep doing it, they're stupid. That So, correction is uh the the Bible talks about in Hebrews, don't despise the discipline of the Lord. Nobody likes correction. Nobody wants correction. Nobody wants really honestly none of us want feedback. Like we don't want We want positive feedback. We want positive uh words of like, "Hey, you're doing great and everything's good and nothing's ever You know, there's so many people, right, that come to all of us and they say, "Hey, what do you think about this thing that I did?" Or what do you think about Like I remember in high school, right, my friend's going, "What do you think about my girlfriend?" Your girlfriend sucks, dude. But I'm not going to tell him that cuz he really doesn't want to hear that. He wants to just be validated in the decision that he's making. Right. Right? And people don't really grow out of that. So, wisdom is Hold on, man. I got to I got to interrupt you. Where do you think that comes from, man? Cuz like in theory, like like okay, so this is like the difference between rational and logic, right? Logically, if you're driving over the edge of a cliff and I go, "Hey, Josh, you're headed for a cliff, man. Like you're going to crash your car and probably kill yourself. And you're like, "You know what, man? You Screw you. Who do you think you are?"

17:23 You know, I'm the one in the I'm the one with the steering wheel. Yeah, I'm the one You didn't work hard to get this car. Who are you to tell me guys do with their wives all the time. It's like, "You're going to run into somebody." "No, I'm not." Then you freaking run into them cuz you didn't listen. Right. But but where but like what Like like I said, logically somebody comes in, tells you something, and you're like, "Yeah, okay. Check. Like, I'm not going to do that." But that's not the experience. So, like why Like do you do you have any thoughts on why people turn that away? Yeah. I mean why don't we listen to what God says to do in our life? I mean, it's pride. Everything's pride. Every Like, the root of the root of all kinds of evil, the Bible says, is pride. Right. So, what's what's pride? Pride is when I make my life about me, my way, how I want things to be, what I want to do. So, if I'm ever in a space in my life where it's like all about what I think, and I'm not going to listen to anybody I can I can be prideful about doing things God's way, right? Like, I can become a Pharisee and go, "Oh, I'm so much better than everybody because I'm the most godly person, right?"

18:26 And so, there's this there's this in insidious, you know, the book of Jeremiah, and a lot of people don't have this worldview, but they should if they're a Christian. The book of Jeremiah says the human heart is desperately wicked, right? Who can Who can tame it? So, I have to admit to myself that when I get feedback or when I get correction, just to stay on this thread I by default reject that because it's antithetical to my way. Mhm. Right? So, your wife says, "I don't want you to treat me that way. I don't want you to talk to the kids that way. I don't want, you know, you All the All the people that, you know, when you get married, when you first get married, right? You think you think that you're just Well, some A lot of people think this. I don't know if everybody thinks this, but you think you're going to be the same you that you were. I think men think that, dude.

19:17 Yeah. My wife loves me for me, and it's just so great. I'm going to create such a great life for her. Our family's going to be so amazing. And then that first year, the first 5 years of marriage, like I've been married almost 12 years. Um you just are getting told a lot of things you're doing wrong that no one's ever told you before because nobody's lived with you on that level. Like I remember I never thought I like snored and stuff. And then Courtney like probably the first, you know, 6 months of your marriage, she's like, "Man, you I can't even barely sleep. You snore so much." I'm like, "I don't snore." Yeah. Like, "Yeah, you do." I'm like, "Well, how would I be aware of my own snoring?" I can't Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So you think you know, we we have this kind of like default thing of like even the most um And I and I've to to go down the road of pride and I'll and I'll come back to wisdom.

20:09 So to me Jesus said or the book of Philippians, Paul said you should have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. He humbled himself. He took the form of slave. So humility is the way God wants us to live if we if we're going to live like Jesus. Well, what is humility, right? Humility what a lot of people think is humility is not being egotistical and arrogant. So they they look at arrogant people and they look at arrogance, and we can easily define arrogance. And they go, "Oh, you know, as long as I'm not arrogant, I'm a humble person." It's like, "No." To me hum uh pride is like a spectrum. And humility's on one or arrogance is on one side and insecurity's on the other side. The thing about arrogance and insecurity is they're both about you. Yeah, very good. When you're insecure and when you're arrogant, you're doing the same thing. You're making life 100% about you.

21:02 So the thing for an insecure person is they're making life about what a piece of crap they are. Like they're like, "Oh, I'm so awful and my life is So those people But the thing is those an insecure person is just as bad at receiving feedback as an arrogant person because for an insecure person feedback destroys them. They're like, "Oh, I'm I know, you know, they like this is the person that you know, they go get coaching, they're in high school, and they're not that good of a player, and their coach coaches them, and then they quit the team cuz they can't handle the coaching, right? That's what an insecure person does. An arrogant person, they don't get coaching cuz they think they know it all already. Right. So both both responses are the incorrect response. The the right response, humility in a biblical the biblical to me the a practical biblical definition of humility is just when I make it not about me, right? So I'll I'll come back to correction on that.

21:57 If my wife corrects me, then what she's talking to me about is not my identity as a person. She's talking about my behavior, and those are two different things. Your identity and your behavior aren't the same thing. Right. My behavior is affecting her in a certain way. So if I don't want to affect her that way, I need to change my behavior. And the way a lot of people think is my behavior is also my identity. So the way I act is also the way that I am. And if you do that, you're going to either be very arrogant or you're going to be very insecure. Mhm. Because when a person who's really insecure thinks that their behavior is who they who they are, they can't ever get feedback about changing their behavior because they don't really believe they can change their behavior. They're just trying to get people around them who around them who are going to be okay with how they are.

22:50 Yeah, I mean, so I'm glad you touched on identity cuz I was that's where my mind was going while I was thinking about this. I I I think it's um if you haven't really been loved well, and I I what I what I feel like I constantly come across is you had great parents. Your parents love you deeply. You didn't have to earn their love. Um they gave you you know your dad's a very godly man and he had a very clear picture of how he was going to raise kids. Now I'm saying all that, for as well as your dad loved you, you still need to to have the revelation of the love of Christ in order to be really secure and and rested in who you are to the point that you can take feedback. And I think that there's I think that there's two things that we often times we will attribute to somebody like you like oh well you had a good dad and I didn't so that automatically gives me an excuse of why I just can't have what you have. And or we try and put it on somebody else and really like when you have the revelation that it's only whenever it's only that you the only person who can love you the way you need to be loved perfectly is God.

23:51 Yeah. And regardless of how good or bad your parents are. It kind of removes the equation cuz your dad also said something that I love where he says your dad your the God gave you to the parents that you had for a reason. So you can't sit there and be like oh you know if my parents were better cuz what you're basically saying is Lord you didn't really know what you were doing. And that's absolutely not accurate. You're there to learn lessons what to do more of what not to do, right? But when you realize that you need God's perfect love, I think to be loved perfectly and to know that you can't earn it, that it's 100% based on him and actually has nothing to do with you. It's just that he's decided to love you. He's infinite. He's God. He doesn't change. He's not He's not a man that he changes mind. Now it's like, okay, well if I don't have to do anything to earn the love, that like removes so much of the complication of like oh what do these people think about me like you know you know cuz now there's no sliding scale of approval like you're loved you're in. Like you you don't get thrown out of your family because you had a bad day at school, right? You know like I I I'm always a little bit worried when I see and I had a email from a CEO that I work with recently where he referred to the team as family and I was like nope because I don't fire my kids.

24:54 But like you will 100% fire the people. But I think I think there's a lot to that because if you're loved perfectly, you can be told you're not good at something, you're like, "Okay." And like it's like that's just something to work on. It's not like damaging blow to all that you held dear about what made you valuable. And I don't think people really dive into that to identity at that level. Um but, I think that that base level of under of having love allows all of the other pillars of identity be built on. It's foundational. Well, I mean, there's also like Dr. Robbie talks about this and it's a psychological thing. I'm not a psychologist, but there's there's what's called attachment theory, right? Of how you do relationships. Yes. And one of the things I've heard him say is your your your um your attachment style is set by the time you're 7 years old. So, like the default way that you do relationships is set by the time you're 7. Right? So, it's really based on like so much of our relationship, really our our relationship to God, our relationships to other people are based on our our relationship with our parents.

26:01 Yeah, for sure. So, like my perspective on God all growing up was because of how I saw my dad. And for most people, that's still true. They just can't They just don't really diagnose it that way. So, I have what's called secure attachment because I had great parents. So, you know, secure attachment is like I have a positive So, there's like basically in attachment theory, it's like you have a positive view of yourself, you have a positive view of other people, or you have a or you have a negative view of other people and a negative view of yourself. So, a person who has a negative uh a negative view of themselves and a negative view of other people is what's called avoidant, right? So, they're very insecure, but also they're insecure about their relationships with other people. They want They want to be loved, but also they reject intimacy at the same time. This isn't like a whole discussion on attachment theory, right? Um there's anxious there's anxious there's like anxious which anxious is your your you have a negative view of yourself but you have a positive view of other people.

27:03 Mhm. And then you have like avoidant which avoidant is you have a good view of yourself but a negative view of other people. So all that to say this is a fine psychological theory and what a lot of people that do attachment theory say is well if your attachment style is set by the time you're seven then it's really up to your parents to make sure that you're like a secure person. That's in my opinion in my professional opinion as a person with a film degree. We can we can ask Dr. Brittany our friend who's a clinical psychologist, right? And we can ask Dr. Robbie. Yeah. But in my opinion that's fine until you learn about how you do relationships. Then once you learned about how you do relationships you have the ability to change it cuz you're no longer ignorant.

27:55 So you could have gone like your whole life and done relationships poorly based on how you were raised blah blah blah but then the problem is not that, right? To me the problem is when people become aware of it and they still keep doing relationships the same way and they still keep blaming the thing that they've now become aware of. So if you didn't have good relationships with your parents or if you didn't have good parents it's not that this is easy but you can be different than them. Yeah. You can get around the right people. There's a whole bunch of stuff. You can go get therapy. There's a whole bunch of great things you can do to become a healthy person. Mhm. The the um the determinant factor in that is whether or not you listen to anybody who's trying to help you. Again, this is like back to correction. Yeah. So you're not So what we think what what a lot of people do even like Christians and all that, is they turn like a personality profile or a psychological evaluation into the into the Bible.

28:54 Right. So, they think, okay, I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert, thus saith the Lord. I have a dysfunctional life, thus saith the Lord. I uh I am insecure, I'm arrogant, I'm egotistical, I'm a narcissist, whatever like the whole diagnosis is, they go, oh well, that's just who I am. Well, do you want to be that? That's really the question. Do you want that? Well, no, I don't want that. Okay, well, scripture says you can change by changing your thinking. God can change anything about you. Right? He made you. And yeah, like on a level, right, in your family, like you're saying, he put you in the situation that you're in for like a specific reason. You might not have wanted to be in that situation. That might not have been, but everything is ultimately about perspective. Mhm. Right? So, me and me and my dad were talking about this today, actually. We were talking on the on a on the phone. And you know, no kids are really raised by the same parents is what he was kind of sharing with me, because you have there's two dynamics. One is a parent changes who they are based on the individual kid. All of us that have kids know that's true. Like you look at the relationship and you go, okay, well, what does this person need versus what does this other person need? Right? Like my kid like one of my kids who's not uh who's really a good listener, I don't have to correct her very strongly.

30:12 Right. I don't have to be on her. My you know, my other my other kid that's not a good listener, it's like you get a lot more intensity a lot quicker, because you're not listening. Right? I'm not anyway. So, that's the first dynamic is you're going to decide who to be based on the relationship, but then the second dynamic is what's that person's perspective on who you are and what you did. So, when And my dad tells us a really great story about his uh, a conversation he had with my sister where he was correcting her really strong and she's a teenager and she said to him, "Hey, the the way you're talking to me doesn't work for me." Mhm. Right? Which you almost like Hope's almost a teenager. Oh, she is a teenager, yeah. She's teenager enough. Oh, she'll she'll tell Yeah, she'll let me know if I if I So, is that easy or hard for you to hear? Uh, honestly, it's not hard for me to hear at all because I I think, you know, I kind of adopt this from Garrett like sent doesn't mean received. My job as communicators not to say what's on my mind. My job of my communicator is to make sure the person gets the message that that needs to be transmitted.

31:19 So, like yeah. So, when you care about that, you'll listen to the feedback. For sure. Because what you say is always at the mercy of a person's level of understanding. Mhm. Right? What I say and what I do is not my identity. It's just how I'm communicating in that particular moment. Thank you for listening to The Dialog. Make sure to like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.