Joshua Keith Craft

0:51 You know, that would actually be like a great little way to make yourself famous. Just go take everything you heard you like that's why all the proverbs and just re make them into your own sayings be like wow this guy's so wise. That's what that's what all these people do. They quote other people and then say I had this thought the other day. It's like the great philosopher Michael Scott. You miss you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Wayne Gretzky. Michael Scott. Michael Scott. Yeah. That's exactly how you do it. But but dude I mean you you said it though, man. Like ignorance is not a great defense. Yeah. There's a I talked to a lawyer recently and he said ignorance like a lot of people they'll they'll go into certain circumstances and situations and go I just didn't know. Right. Right. And he said ignorance is not a valid defense in the court of law. Man, it's like you can't go sit before a judge or the judge or God and just say well I just didn't know. But where do you think people So it's interesting cuz like I have with my kids like that they're they'll say things like it's not fair and I just go guys fair our family doesn't do fair. Yeah.

1:43 Like I I pull I pull the uncle Bach line. Yeah. I go fair is fair is a way to describe the weather and a place you go in the fall. I'm just like we just don't do fair because I don't want to set them up that they think that life is equitable cuz it's not. I always said I'm like you guys are the most lucky kids in the world. You have parents that love you. I'm like we are rich. I just you know I just tell them a lot of people like well you're not rich dude take a global view like we're rich most likely if you're listening to this. We're recording I'm assuming. So welcome to episode. Yeah there you go. Yeah The Dialog . But like you you're rich if you live you know just in your circumstances. What? like three three billion people live on less than $7 a day in the world, which is and people will be like, "Well, yeah, but that's because they don't have as much expenses." You're right. But $7 a day is still not like, you know, it's not flying. That's that's the disc I mean this isn't like the the the the point of this podcast today but that's the discussion on wealth you know like in the church and in Christianity is uh what does it mean to be rich you know and and if you live in the west like the average American the median household income I think in the United States of America is like $80,000 a year right and that puts you in the top 20% in the whole world right so if you make that as a household income you're one of the richest people in the world meanwhile There's people listening to this in like LA and Miami going not here which is crazy.

3:04 So it shows like you know our perspective on things and God's perspective on things isn't the same. We we we uh define our I think we define wealth in comparison. So in comparison to like you said Miami LA where do I live? What's wealthy based on where I live? What's wealthy based on other people? So we feel like uh a billionaire is obscenely wealthy to the point where they shouldn't be allowed to have that kind of wealth. But then we look at our own health or wealth in other ways, the prosperity that we have in other ways and think that oh well that's that's just me living my life. You know it's like you're talking about with your kids trying to teach them well um we are we're you know they have both parents at home. I mean that just by itself is yeah they've already won two parents that care about them that love them all that and um so but I think I think the way that society works it's like almost like a law that God invented is uh capitalism or just the system whatever the system is is set up to take advantage of ignorant people right so you can be ignorant and just not know like the Bible says my people perish for lack of knowledge so if you want to make sure you fail it's like just be ignorant just don't know things, right?

4:16 You know, so a lot of people they think, well, if I didn't know, then I'm not subject to any kind of penalty. Yeah. The uh the consequences of ignorance and stupidity are the exact same. So stupidity is just ignorance on purpose. It's like, you know, it's like knowing you have a problem and then choosing not to look at it and just going, "Well, I'm not if I never look at it, then it won't exist." And uh then ignorance is just I don't know. Well, the question [clears throat] is not do you not know, it's do you not want to know? A lot of people they they're just they're bliss blissfully ignorant because they just don't want to look over them. But do you so I got so I I want to because people will put blame on things, right? Like they'll they'll place blame elsewhere and like well I didn't know like nobody told me which the underlying implication is that somebody should have told somebody else had responsibility. Yeah. Somebody else should have told you. But then there's also like this I do feel like society's kind of like enabled that a lot more, you know, like like it's okay. It's okay now. like every you can sit there and talk about like how difficult things are and there's this belief that's like it's the government's job or it's somebody's job to make things equitable and there's like a shift of blame that happens that that I feel like is not just tolerated it's almost celebrated now and where where it's like yeah somebody else should make that right for you and I don't know where that comes from man like I don't know where that kind that sort of existence like you know like I don't you could be like I don't know that people are being nefarious in what they're doing I mean like you'll get conspiracy theorist like that's because they're trying to keep them voting for them and like all you know all this sort of stuff and I'm like maybe I mean it's hard to get 12 people in a room to agree on the same pizza let alone to put something like that together but you know whatever I I I I don't know enough to this isn't a conspiracy podcast you can just go find those you go you can look somewhere else go listen to Rogan man you'll get you get like 26 conspiracies an episode I listen to him have Aaron Rodgers on there and I I turned it off I was like dude I this is too deep they're talking about like aliens he's talking about the uh the the his wonderful experience experiences on Percocet. Is that what he was talking about?

6:12 No, he was Perk Rogers is like a whole other Youard. It's a meme. Anyway, it's a whole whole You're a lot cooler on the meme game. But the blame but the blame thing I think is really interesting because it's like I'm I'm working that out in my kids. This sense of entitlement and like this lack of gratitude and that's just part of growing up. I think that you have to do that. But like you said, like this ignorance uh you still have to pay the consequences. Like I don't in America I feel like we're almost so comfortable a lot of people don't have to pay the consequences like you don't have to worry about dying or like not having food anymore. Yeah. Like or like we've treat we've we've created this uh like I think even the idea of equity you know like it's we don't even talk about things being equal people have now replaced equal with equity right which is different right equality is everyone gets the same opportunity. equity is everybody gets the same exact uh starting point, right? Which is just Yeah.

7:08 I think the fundamental truth is like we could talk about this all day, but I think the fundamental truth of something like that is those things are impossible. I think that like you know we live in a world today where uh there's there's countries that have said that like healthcare is a right. So like you you now have the right to free health care. Um in America it still is kind of that way. We have Medicare, Medicaid, and we're kind of getting on like subjects that can like hurt people's feelings. Like like we're in the we're talking about this in the in the process in the middle of like a government shut down. Yeah. It's October 2025 and like our government has shut down. Yeah. And uh they're talking about people not going to people are not going to get food stamps anymore or they don't call them food stamps anymore. They're not going to get their SNAP benefits anymore and things like that. Did that replace I that that replace food stamps? Called SNAP, right? I knew it was called SNAP. I didn't know. Yeah. Okay. I didn't realize that.

7:58 And so, um, so the so the interesting question for me is like who says that you're entitled to any of that, right? you know, I mean that that's such a we're in such a position of privilege in the world today that and especially being in the western world to think that uh we we deserve to be taken care of by anybody like you know there was a I remember when I was in high school this isn't this isn't what I'm going to the story I'm going to tell is not uh probably it's more of an exception than the rule but I remember when I was in high school we went down to we did a missions trip to the Dream Center in LA and homelessness is a big deal homelessness is a big deal today. It's a big been a big deal for like ever. Um, so we go down to Skid Row, which is this place in LA where uh Skid Row kind of became Skid Row because what other cities would do was they would take their homeless people and give them a one-way bus pass to Los Angeles and where the bus station was was in this part of Los Angeles. So, they would just all it it was a huge deal. I think like in the '8s it it all these homeless people would just be just You still go there to this day. There's like Oh, yeah. Skid Row is still a thing. I didn't realize that's how it started, man.

9:08 Yeah. So, um so but we went down there and there's nobody there. Like you think you you hear in your mind, oh, Skid Row, it's going to be crazy. It's like this massive city, tent city full of homeless people. And um we got on to Skid Row and there's nobody there. We go we go to like the soup kitchen and there's nobody in the soup kitchen. There's nothing going on. And the person who was working there was like, "Oh, you guys came you guys came [clears throat] the first week of the month." It's like, "Well, what does that mean?" Oh, well, in the first week of the month, everyone gets their checks from the government and they all go get hotels and then they're only really homeless like a couple weeks out of the month. So, the third and fourth week of the month is when we're busy, right? And then they get their checks the first week. Wow. I mean, that's probably not typical. I'm not I'm not a homelessness expert on it or houselessness or unhoused people, however we're supposed to say it now. Yeah, I'm not an expert on that. But we live in a we live in a society now that says for and this isn't like a I mean, well, for nothing, we're just going to take care of you.

10:10 So, you don't have to do anything. You don't have to contribute. You don't have to like really necessarily add value. You're just where you're at and you are who you are and so now we're going to take care of you. And people feel like that that's a requirement. So, so, so then they then they add all this biblical language onto it like we should take care of the orphan, we should take care of the widow, which all of that is absolutely true according to according to scripture. Um, but there is a there is a problem with saying that everyone who is uh in poverty or destitute or whatever or struggling is entitled to these things, right? which I think which I think yeah leads to the conversation that me and you were having which is um I'll say it the way I said it kind of to you and then we can go from there like none of this stuff matters because it's all kind of based in how people feel and blame and if you whatever you you know the thought that I always have is whatever you blame controls you so if you blame the government the government controls you if you blame other people if you blame your parents for how you are if you blame the the boss that fired you like whatever the trauma AMA is right. If if you blame them, they're the one that's in control. And if I blame myself, the reason why I say that is cuz if I blame myself, then I can fix it. Then it can be fixed. If I don't blame myself for my situation, then what I have to do is wait for a savior to just show up and rescue me.

11:33 Yeah. No, you're talking about ownership. And and by the way, when you say that, no, it's irrelevant. You're not talking about the people who are actually in the hardship. No. What we were talking about is there's a lot of people who are like, you know, quite right. Well, they have their right, whatever. Uh they they're sharing on their social media like it's popping up all over the place where people are like, you know, this and particularly people that don't like Donald Trump, you know, because he's easy to take shots at are like, you know, this this has only happened twice in our where their SNAP benefits have been affected and it's both been under Trump. And so he's under fire for that. People are outraged about it and and they're blaming him. And so like you and I's conversation was you said, "Well, it's irrelevant because it's uncontrollable." And I was like, "I don't think it's quite as simple as that." Well, I think you you know you'd been like the role of government. I think you have an interesting perspective because you you're from America. You lived in the UK for a long time and the role government plays in these two different our places are completely different.

12:25 Massively different. So So this is what's so interesting to me. So like when I lived I lived in the UK for 9 years. I was born and raised in America. Lived there for 9 years in my 20s and into my early 30s and and then I' back here in the freest state in America, Texas, which I love. And [clears throat] yeah, the Republic of Texas, the only the only state that can fly its flag at the same height as the American flag. And uh you know, they do. Ye-haw. Yee-haw. Uh but but what's so interesting to me, man, is like when I lived in the UK, I remember I realized there was this thought process like when something would go wrong, like if there was, you know, insert whatever problem people would be like the government should like that the thought process wasn't like I should do something about it. And in fact, people would get you could get penalized like if if somebody was being assaulted and you step in and like you take out the assaulter. Um you know, it was like, "Oh, now you could get in trouble. You can't do the police." It's that Yeah. that Yeah. Don't do It's like that that thought process, which to me is wild. Like if I see somebody that's like doing I'm just, you know, you just step in and you take care of it. Like you're especially if you're a man, you should do that. You need to be strong for people. Um and and I had a conversation with somebody about that today actually, but it's a whole another story. Well, there's a like like what's interesting to me that they did in the UK, they did this however however long ago they they found out that people weren't saving enough for retirement. So then people would reach retirement age and they would not be able to afford like their life. They'd have been career people, right? So what they did in the government was they mandated retirement savings, right?

13:52 So now the government is just taking a portion of your check and they're putting it towards your retirement to make sure that you have money in retirement. And a lot of people go, "Oh, well that's a really good thing. That's a really good idea." Um, but that's like Ronald Reagan said, and like I'm a conservative, but I also I'm not like, you know, I think to say that now is like, oh, now we've drawn a battle line. Like I think there's there's there's power and compromise and having good discussions. But Ronald Reagan said that the worst things you can hear, one of the worst things you can hear is, "I'm from the government. I'm here to help." Yeah. And um so so pretty much what the government said like is you're too stupid or ignorant to save for your own future and so we're going to mandate that we take a percentage of your income and we decide what that goes what that goes into and now we have government sponsored pension funds and a lot of people are for that.

14:46 Yeah. Right. Um, a lot of people like, you know, and this was me and your conversation, a lot of people with the, you know, people that are on SNAP like or on welfare in America are not they're not like winning. So, I know this is like a really sensitive topic for some people to discuss. It's um it's like, well, you're Josh, you're not you don't know what it's like to be in that position. Uh, you're not those people. You don't know what they've been through. You don't know what they're going through. All that. And um, so I I understand that. And it's it is the the the truth of this whole the whole situation is you know whatever the halls of power are doing like whatever these negotiations are in government that it always is the poorest people that are that have been affected like all throughout history. This isn't just true in America in 2025 during government shutdown. It's always the poorest people when when there's wars, when there's uh depressions, when what whatever it is that we can name in history, it's always been uh poor people that are deeply affected by that the most.

15:49 And so I understand the perspective that a lot of people have of well maybe we can cure that with government like maybe we can make the government effective enough. Yeah. That it can fix the problems. And the the the thing the thing that I've that that I find really interesting is um so back to whatever you blame controls you and all that stuff is Jesus said so Jesus said he said number one you'll always have poor the poor among you. Yeah. Right. The second thing that happened there's this really interesting story in Matthew I think it's like Matthew 11 where John the Baptist is in jail. Right. And he's going to get killed and he's he he's spent his whole life preparing for Jesus. like he's preached the coming of the Messiah. He's basically in jail for doing that. And he sends his disciples to go talk to Jesus. And he's like, they're like, John wants to know if you're the real deal.

16:40 Like John basically wants to know if he's given his life for the right person. Right? And Jesus says, "Tell John, go back and tell John the the blind see, the lame walk, the dead are raised to life, and the gospel is preached to the poor." Right? So you hear that and you're like, "Oh man, that's so great. Jesus did all these miracles and and he preached he talked to poor people. Yeah. Like Jesus could solve poverty. He could go, "Hey, for all of us, he go, "Hey, now now in your bank account, it's just going to say an infinity sign, right?" Like no problem, right? Even even scripture to me, it talks it it illustrates poverty as a mindset. M so the gospel was, you know, we we we we define the gospel now as like modern day Christians as Jesus came. He lived on the earth. He live he was God in in person. He lived a sinless life. He died on the cross for our sins so we could be reunited to God and have a relationship with him and have our salvation guaranteed for eternity, be saved from our sins. Why would Jesus tell poor people about something that hadn't happened yet? So he's still alive. He's not going to go he's not sitting there.

17:44 At least in my mind, we don't really know, right? But he's not sitting there going, "Hey guys, in a few years, it's all going to be great cuz I'm going to kill me and I'm going to go to heaven and you can related and you'll be saved from your sins." That's what what what uh what poor person how does that help them in their situation, right? Why why would Jesus go preach the gospel to the poor? Well, the word gospel is a translation of what's in scripture and that's good news. So, what's the good news? what's the good news that was preached to the poor to me all through scripture and I think people don't see this like with sin right and this is to me why and you know connect this to ignorance this is why ignorance is such a big deal because all through scripture all through the New Testament especially sin is not talked about as a primarily spiritual issue like we we treat sin the church treats sin Christians treat sin like it's a spiritual thing it's there I mean there is demonic stuff and there's spiritual things that happen, but we treat it like primarily a spiritual disease that needs a spiritual cure. And I'm saying primarily because there's multiple elements to sin. So, it's not just one thing or another thing. But the way that scripture, the way that the New Testament defines sin as is in Romans 8, Paul says sin's a word in your mind.

19:03 You know, uh Romans 12:2 that you'll probably hear on this podcast a 100 times. I mean, people probably hear it on Impossible Life all the time. Yeah. It's like don't be conformed to this world. Allow God to transform you into a new person by changing the way that you think. Yeah. Jesus when he talked about when he said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. You he used the Greek word metanoia which means to change your thinking. It's a philosophical word. And so why all that? Let's connect all of that. Jesus went to poor people and he taught them to think better because being dead is a state of being. Being blind is a state of being. Being lame is a state of being. Being poor is not a state of being. It's a mindset. Yeah. And so what what we have in culture and again I'm just asking everyone to go with me logically for a second. Like I understand that there's feelings and hard complex human issues that are involved in this but just go with me logically for a minute. What we have in culture is uh governments that whether America is a Christian nation or not is not the issue. America is not run with really a Christian ethic. like at this point I think people are trying to implement that and we're maybe as close as we've been in a long time and all that different kind of stuff but I from the perspective of an idealist we don't operate really our government yeah we're not Israel we don't have like okay let's open the Bible and like get the foundation we're not we're not really operating our government according to true Christian ethics I mean do we even operate according to our constitution that's the question I mean seriously so um so in in the world. So again, Romans 12, don't be conformed to like the patterns of this world. The world has a way of seeing things and a way of operating in things.

20:45 And one of those things I think if you look at culture is that poverty is a state of being, right? So no matter where you live, like we live in America, it's the land of opportunity. Really, there's no excuse for there there's reasons I understand there's reasons for people to be poor and in poverty. There's not a reason to stay there like in in America. Like I'm confident as a person who's grown up here, who's watched who's watched story after story after story of American success stories, people rising from nothing. I understand in places like China that's not true. In places like Russia, that might not be true. In America, like there is uh it's the land of opportunities. Still is to this day, right? I completely agree. So, so but but the problem that I feel like we have is that we have now created a governmental system which has really been there all along. It's from the even the time of Jesus and the Roman Empire and all that.

21:40 We've created a governmental system that says that poverty is a state of being and the only way to help that is to just you keep these pe it's not the intention is like we're going to keep everybody poor but we're just going to make sure that in their poverty they're not completely destitute. Right. Right. So you you like alleviate the pain just enough that the per like and it's a good thing cuz you're like we can't let these people starve but you're also not giving them enough to like thrive. So they end up just being in like you're saying, they end up living at a sub-optimal level. And it's like, well, the pain's not that bad. And I don't think it's that rational in their minds, but that's kind of what happens. And and it's it's complicated because then people listen to me or listen to people say stuff like this and like, what are we supposed to do? Like what are we, you know, yeah, it's an obvious question. The the So what are we supposed to do is a great question because it still shows that we we place the responsibility on the government, right? So, the government should come in and educate people better. The government should come in and you especially see this in like the uh pro-life pro-choice debate where people go, "Oh, well, if you're going to be pro-life and you have you make you make all these women go have their unwanted babies, who's going to take care of the babies?"

22:52 Yeah. Right. Well, the mom's going to that's that's how it should be. But but that's a comp that for some reason that creates complexity, right? Because well, what if the mom doesn't want to? Well, you know the thing I used to say when I used to do school assemblies and we travel around and talk to people about teenage pregnancy and stuff like that is, hey, if you're going to make big boy decisions, you got to live with big boy consequences, right? You're going to go if you're going to go do that and not be married to somebody or you're going to be a teenager, you got to understand that's what they teach you like in sex ed. Like there's consequences to these kind of actions. So, so if you're going to and that's and that's again that's that's what I'm saying about blame is we look at something like poverty and we go it's the government's job to fix it when really if we want to help what we got to do is find all the poor people that we're around and poor poverty starts with our thinking. Yeah. and help them not think the way that they think. Right?

23:45 And a person who's and this is again I think the challenge and there's there's again feelings associated with this and I understand that but I don't I understand that there are feelings associated with this. I don't understand the feelings right but the I the the person who is in that place like the person who is in a place of thinking poorly. Yeah. Right. Whether that's thinking poorly about themselves, thinking poorly about other people, thinking poorly about life, or or just thinking with like a poverty mentality, they ultimately are the one that's responsible for how they think. And and a person can be ignorant and say, "Well, no, I'm not. I'm not I'm not responsible for that." And that's just to quote The Big Lebowski, that's just kind of like your opinion, man. Right. You know, I I feel like God makes us responsible for us. And so to what you're saying, the real question to me is um control is always I mean it comes back to this a lot for me is is controllables and uncontrollables.

24:47 Yeah. And and I hear you on that and I I don't you didn't really say anything that I like staunchly disagree with. I'd be curious to know cuz you said I mean poverty has been around for a long time and unfortunately they're the ones that get hammered the most when something like this happens. I'd be curious to know what it was like back in Roman times cuz I feel like they were pretty harsh about it. That's would be my assumption. you would know better than I. But what I was saying to you is it's like it's great to say that something's an uncontrollable and I I've been I've been broke, man. Like I I like I I have been so broke it hurts. Like truthfully, where it just absolutely hurts. Yeah. Like really struggle. Like I'm talking like Yeah. I mean I've been very very broke. Uh and so I know that pain well. But like I I look at it and I go, "Okay, getting out of that really did take me to start changing my thinking." And and what do you think the catalyst was? Um, man, you know, I'll be honest. When when we when we moved back to America, it gave me a different sense of belief because I remember I was driving uh from San Diego originally. I was driving from LAX down uh down the five down the 78. I feel like the California down the five the stop, but like so I was that's how we that's how they talk out there. So I was driving the 78, which is the it's the San Marcos freeway out there in California. And this thing is I don't know maybe 20 mi long. And the entire thing was just lined with industrial parks, shopping centers, houses, you know, like little strip malls. And I remember I was driving, I was like I said I said to my wife, I was like, "Babe, look at how like somebody's got to go to all these places to keep them open. Look at all the the prosperity and opportunity that's here." And I just really I what it was was it was belief.

26:18 And this is what's so interesting is because like I hear what you're saying. It's like how do we help how how do we help the poor and what's the actual solve for that? because it's like I need belief in order I needed to believe that if I did certain things I could get out of the situation I was in and what gave me that belief was I was in England where I did not have belief where I felt I literally felt like and I don't necessarily agree with this now but the time the way I felt at the time was that no matter what I did it wouldn't actually help because there was like a glass ceiling that was that was the term that was used a lot and I think there's a lot of people that there that's this why I was saying to you it's not as simple as just going like controls and in controls yeah no cuz you said you said What what you said to me was uh just telling people that something's uncontrollable doesn't help. It doesn't help them. No, because you need to give them you need to give them tools to like understand what's going and reframe them because cuz you know like what I needed was some belief. And what I would love for people to be able to do is to be able to generate belief from within. But like when you're when you have broken thinking and when you've just been hammered down, I mean keep in mind at this point I'd been depressed for six years and like two to three of those were like heavy depression. And you know, you don't have a lot of belief or a lot of optimism. not seeing things clearly. I'm like walking around with a dark shade of glasses on all the time going like a sun doesn't come out anymore, right? Like this is this is like what my mental state is. But the one thing I believed in was that like coincided with you being just so like when you talk about being broke, it wasn't just like financially we weren't doing well. It was like across everything. I was financially broke. I was I mean man, you know, I could Yeah.

27:48 I remember going out to like I remember going watching an England game in a pub in the UK and like I always had a roof over my head. So, I don't want people to be like, "Oh, you were on the streets." And and I'm grateful for that. But like, you don't want to be like in your late 20s, early 30s living with your wife's parents and not really having money. And I remember being in there and like going to a pub to watch an England game and not being able to afford to even buy like a beer or an appetizer. Um, and so like I was like hiding cuz I didn't want the bar staff to see me cuz I wanted to be there to watch the game and not get thrown out. Fortunately, it was packed with a bunch of people singing, so you know, there's no problem hiding. But I remember looking at people like ordering whatever they're ordering just being like man that'd be amazing to be able to order food. You know what I mean? Like just real and I like I remember, you know, I needed new pants. So I I've started teaching music lessons and I had to save for 3 weeks to buy a pair of pants, man. And like that's that's this is like in my mid20s. This was not like a proud, you know, man, I'm killing it at life thing. It it hurt. And and but like what happens is is you start to get around other people who have that like, oh yeah, it's just like you'll hear people say this all the time. They'll make declarative statements. I still have friends over there that are in hard times and they're just like, oh, this country, that's what they'll say.

28:57 They're like, this country, man, it's just going to pot. That's the English term. And I and I go and I'm like always trying to instill some belief because I know that if you can get some belief, you can actually get out of that. But like most people need to see it to believe. And when you're surrounded by people who are broken, hurt as well, what do you do with that? Yeah. And that that was my thing. It's like so you have to have some tools. I mean, you know, for me, fortunately, I had a way out in the sense that I could actually move back to America. And guess what? We moved in with my parents. And, you know, I worked really, really, really hard. But like, if I didn't have that [clears throat] belief, I would have never done it. And and that's where it's like, how do you give somebody that this is a whole complex thing? Yeah. Because it's like I didn't have I didn't get any although I I did I was actually on uh I was actually on what they call the Dole in the UK where you go and get which is like welfare. Yeah. You go get benefits, man. Like that that happened. And I remember this was like a real identity kick for me cuz I was like, "Oh, this isn't me." Like I went down to the office and like I was actually trying to get a job because I didn't like being unemployed. And they were like really happy like, "Oh, you're actually applying for jobs." And I was like, "Yeah, what else am I supposed to do?" And like they they were like genuinely like pumped. And I realized that there was a lot of people, you just want to live on this forever, man.

30:02 But there was a lot of people who were like, you know, were that was like their their their their strategy for life, I guess, was just like, I'm going to get these things. And like it's, you know, it is like it's like a I never thought I was going to be sharing this stuff on the podcast. I don't think I've ever talked about it publicly like cuz I'm not proud of that. No, but that I mean that shows you the the the state of so if I if we break down the statement like whatever you blame controls you, right? Right. If I sit there and I blame the country or I blame my family or then then I I can't then I have said to myself, right, I can't do anything. Yeah. There's nothing I can do until X changes. Like people look at um like people now like there's some people there's people that we love. There's people that we know that are really excited that Donald Trump's the president. There's a lot of people that aren't. People leave the country.

30:55 They're flipping out. like they they look at the government as a um like a loadar of whether or not they're going to be successful. Yeah. For Oh, for sure they do. Right. Whether and and you know, you can substitute the government, you can say government, you can say friends, you can you can it's a it's a social circle. It's a it's a community. So people look at their community and they go, "Okay." And the the default state I think of people is to look at outside themselves. It's like it's like for some reason the way that we are is we we we don't look inward first. We always look outward for like the source of the problem. So if I if if whatever I blame controls as [clears throat] long as I blame external things, I can't do anything which is right what uh socialists believe. So what a socialist believes is that it's up to the government to fix everything for everybody because these people are incapable of fixing it for themselves.

31:58 That's that's like fundamental. That's the most positive way that I can present socialism is is to say cuz it's like the dole in the UK or whatever. It's like the oh wow you're actually applying for jobs because most of the people that are and even the people that work in like this this industry if you want to call it that they don't believe that any of these people are capable of doing anything more than getting this welfare. Right. Right. So that's really the kindest way I can present socialism is to say that it is the belief that people are incapable of taking care of themselves or advancing themselves in any way and we're going to do that for them. Right? So that's a that's a perspective that people can have. Let me let me Yeah, let me ask you. So I'm sorry to interrupt, but like I think that's such an interesting statement because I think you could look around like dude there's lots of people that are incapable of taking care of themselves. And like I'm not saying because they have a physical or mental disability. I'm saying like there's some people that you go like this guy can't take care of himself. And then I immediately ask this kind of why I want to pick on your brain. Like we forget that like society has not always been super developed. Like there was a time like did those people just die or what hap like what happened in the ancient world right like um cuz we value life way more than that.

33:10 Yeah. I mean in the in the ancient world uh like I'll give you an example. So like in the Roman Empire uh people thought that Christians were uh did human sacrifices because what Christians would do so like in that time in history if you had a kid that you didn't want you just leave him outside. Oh man. Right. I mean, you you couldn't afford to take care of I mean, it's it's like, you know, this happens in poor countries now. Social I mean, social safety nets are great things. I'm not saying they're bad because we've we've advanced so much since then. But in that time in history, like if you had a a a family member who was like had some kind of special need, if you had one too many children, all that, you would just abandon them to die, right? So what Christians would do in the early church is they would come take all these kids and take all these people that were were abandoned and go take care of them.

34:02 And so in the Roman mind, this is how crazy that idea was for Christianity. In the Roman mind, these people didn't think that they were actually being taken care of. They thought that they were killing them and like they was some kind of sacrifice to their god cuz they couldn't fathom that someone would take care of these people. That is so true. Isn't that crazy? That is so true. I mean so so like when the Bible talks about uh you know take care of the orphans and the widows the the what what was behind that in the New Testament church is they would take up a collection just to take care of people in their community that had needs because society the government didn't do anything for anybody. I mean it wasn't like you know that was a revolutionary thought. Yeah. I mean it's like that that's what a lot of his historians believe this. That's what changed the game for Christians from being persecuted to becoming the dominant religion of the Roman Empire is how gracious and kind and generous they were.

34:57 So people were like these people are they're not killing these kids. They're we're raising them and taking care of them. You know, Christians would Christians were some of the first people to perform uh like real true burial ceremonies for people because they believe that you your body was created in in God's image and we should honor that. So they would come collect dead bodies and go bury the bodies for free. all this different stuff, right? And so, so we live in a time in history that is wonderful. I mean, it's amazing that we're able to provide for all this as a society society. But the side effect of that is I think and again, man, I'm not a you know, I have a film degree. That's what I like to say. Like I don't I don't know everything about how to solve every issue. But what I do know is philosophically kind of what works and the way that maybe God has set up humanity to operate. We live in a world today that is so great at taking care of people, but then what that does is that leads to us feeling like we're not responsible for ourselves.

35:55 And I think that's a dangerous proposition. It's an unintended consequence. It's a dangerous place to be to go uh to start to think I'm not responsible for myself. But there's also kind of like a spectrum of that because you know if you if you believe and trust in God and and you trust as trust in God as your provider, you also know that it's not like always fully on you. So there's like this balance between those things. But the balance between those things to me is so whatever you blame controls you. The reason why I say that is the first thing that if we want to get out of it, right? If I want to get out of the cycle, whatever cycle I'm in, cuz it's not just uh financial poverty. I mean, it's emotion. A lot of people walk around, they're depressed, they're anxious, they have emotional poverty, they have mental poverty, they don't think well of themselves, they they never think they're going to win. Whatever that is. People have physical poverty. They're in horrible shape. They're not taking care of themselves. They're not healthy. And the way to get out of that is not to blame everything, right? So, so I'm a I'm a person. So there's people in my life that uh we were raised very similar and were raised in kind of the same environment.

37:05 I've for like for most of my life I've been the significantly let's say overweight. I I don't know on the BMI I would have been obese for like a lot of time. I love food and I don't love discipline right? So so for me if you ask me hey why why why have you struggled with like your weight a little bit throughout your life? Um because I'm I struggle with discipline, right? And um I like the way bad food tastes. That's it. I mean, that's me. Like both of those things are on me, right? If you ask other people, what do other people say? Oh, well, I just have naturally have a slow metabolism. Can't control your metabolism. Got the fat gene. Uh I know people that say, you know, my parents when I was growing up, they forced me to eat healthy. So now I don't eat healthy because it was forced upon me to have all that healthy food forced out. I mean, my parents, you know, like this is a rare thing, but people say this like I was around so many I played sports. I did all this stuff in school.

38:03 People around me were really healthy. You know, you just got like working out and all that stuff just wasn't fun anymore. And so you blame you blame all this other stuff. You say, "Well, I'm this way. You know, I stress eat." So, not know I don't know. I probably do stress eat, but I'm just using [gasps] um a person. It's like the self therapy podcast. Me and you both. Yeah. We're getting it all out. you know, a person stress eats and they say, "Well, I'm doing this cuz I had a good day or I'm doing this cuz I had a bad day." So, they're letting the external situation determine things that they can control. So, there's a whole bunch of stuff that we can't control. There's a whole bunch I mean, we talked about this on the last podcast, talk about Romans 8:28, all that stuff. There's so much stuff that we can't control. And it's so easy for us to look at all of that and go, "Well, that's the problem." And just be sad. I mean, because really, that's the only option you have, right? Like if you're sitting there and you're in like a state of poverty and you think this whole situation is someone else's fault, like what are you going to do besides just sit there and be sad about it?

39:03 My but my I'm kind of sitting here. I'm go, okay, I agree with you on that, right? And obviously I've taken a lot of owner. Well, I've taken ownership in my life. Like I'm not I'm not like this bleeding heart person who's like, "Oh, that's so tough." I'm like, "Well, guess what? Get you know, if it's going to be, it's up to me." Like s like suck it up, buttercup. Here we go. I have a lot more I don't have a lot of empathy. Uh, naturally, uh, thank God I married you. Yeah, but I've always told you you're like one of the most empathetic people in I know, which is so wilding. Which is so wild to me because I do not You're so amazing at loving people and caring for Well, thanks, man. That's that is truthfully God's work on me because that is not a natural thing. I could tell a whole bunch of stories about that, but we're not going to do that. Um, but but what I'm saying is like, so how do you snap out of that? Like what are the Cuz like you saying that thing about like how uh I've just got, you know, I was forced to to eat all this healthy food and or I was around people who were athletic. I just don't like it. Like I just don't like doing that stuff anymore cuz it was forced on me. There's an underlying thought process that they're not aware of that's like, oh, so you think you should only have to do things that you like. If you said that to somebody, they'd be like, well, no I don't. Like, well then how do you find any why are you living life that way?

40:05 Well, this is my point. So how do you how do you like get out of this? Because like for me, like I said, I was in a circle full of people who were in the same poverty mindset that I could have just been like, you know what we should do? We should just do a bunch of drugs and alcohol every week to make ourselves feel better. and like you know like rock and roll and that would have been perfectly acceptable but then you get around different people and they kick you out of it like how are you supposed to you know like how are you supposed to break out of that because you know you can look at this there are areas in the country where poverty is a lot more common right and there's also I mean we all know there's rich areas there's poor areas there's and people talk about like food deserts and all that sort of stuff where there's like legitimately not uh healthy food options in some of these poor places like you know like how do how does someone kick out of that like oh man it's I think it's a really interesting question I I think you know scripture gives this like interesting perspective that about you know it's really coming to the end of yourself um which has a lot of has a lot of different implications I think uh the Dr. Robbie, who's a great friend of ours, um, says he used to walk around with a shirt on that said swagai. So, it was s w a y g d a i. It was like this acronym.

41:19 Yeah. So, the acronym was, "So, what are you going to do about it?" Right. Right. So, cuz he would tell his kids, his kids would come to, he's a he's a doctor, he's a psychologist, clinical psychologist, all this stuff. He's been on the Impossible Life before, all that. So he his kids would come tell him, "Here's all this stuff that happened to me." And then he would ask him, "So what are you going to do about that?" And um man, I think I think that's a that's the deepest that's like the deepest challenge of most people's lives, right? Is going okay to to you have to ask yourself I mean ultimately I think one of the greatest things that my dad's ever taught me is uh the effectiveness question. Oh, so good. Right. And the effectiveness question is how's that working out for you? Yeah. So, we can have all these talks about opinions and perspectives and here's what the government should do, here's what the government shouldn't do.

42:12 There's probably people that have already tuned us out because they don't even like that we're talking about this stuff, right? All that. Um, but the question, the ultimate question remains and that's how's that working out for you? And that's the same thing that Jesus said. Yeah. Yeah. So the same thing the thing that Jesus said that is the ultimate you know equalizer is you'll know them by their fruit right so I know something works if it produces a certain outcome that I want I mean I think a person has to say okay I want to have a certain outcome but then also you have to look at your you know we all have to look at our own life and I have to go okay if I don't like the outputs then I have to do whatever I can to change the inputs. Yeah. And for a lot of people, the place that starts is the place you're kind of, I think, alluding to, and that's community. Yeah.

43:04 So, so Jim Rohn, right, is famous for saying, "You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. The people God created us this way. We're social animals. No matter how introverted we are, the people I'm around, uh, I'm either going to rise to their to the level of where they're at or I'm going to lower myself to the level of where they're at. I that's there's a billion stories of that. I mean it's just like a true principle of life. And so if I want to escape whatever that is like whatever that outcome is the first thing I should do is I should change like who I'm associating with. And there's just it's so interesting because there's just like power in that. Yeah. There's just so much power and and it's like a spiritual thing because there's so much power in just deciding to get in the right rooms with the right people and the right people are in the right rooms and uh when we decide to do that the the what what begins to happen is and God uses people this way right the Bible calls it discipleship. Yeah.

44:04 So more is always caught than taught with people and what happens is we hear and see how other people think and we see the like it's like you you're talking about being around different people. It's like you see wow these people believe that there's possibilities for the future like these people believe that there can be success. Yeah. 100%. and and and being in the UK. Not everyone in the UK is this way, but like we have friends in the UK who who are very, you know, they're like sitting in a pub around people who are saying, "Oh, the the the government's just gone to pot. Everything's falling apart." Yeah. Hey, good use of the term pot, man. Well done. Yeah. I'm learning. My wife would be proud of that. Yeah. But so so those are whether whether you and I want to be truthful with ourselves or not, the thought processes of all those people we're around, they they inform and educate our thought process. So like notice notice the stories that we know of people that have risen out of poverty.

44:59 Really usually the first thing that happens is they change who they're associated. Oh, 100%. I mean Jim Rohn I'm kind of it's dawning on me. The reason I'm making noise because I'm really it's kind of dawning I think where we're kind of coming to a close at is that really it is tied to the level of ownership that you're willing to take. And that's a hard truth over your own life over agency. It's a hard truth. I mean, agency is everything, man. It doesn't, but it's not a nice pill to swallow. Jim Rohn actually said that a person doesn't pass from uh adolescence into adulthood until they start to take ownership for everything in their life, which is like you hear that you're like, "Oh, well, this guy, cuz this is what I'm saying." Societ, like, "Well, but you don't understand. This person had this disadvantage. They were born in this area." And it's like the effect of this question. Okay, we can make all those excuses, but how is that working out for you? Because it saying all that doesn't get them out of there. It it doesn't it doesn't make the poverty go away. No one's giving out bags of free money like infinitely. And Jesus didn't like if you know if you're listening to this and it's like really like where is the starting point? Don't even think about controllables and uncontrollables right now, right?

45:58 What what if you if you don't like the results that you're getting in your life, change who you're doing life with. Yeah. Go go go go go find some people that have results that you like. So if you don't like the results you're getting out of your marriage, go do your best to get around people that have good marriages. Yeah. Um if you don't like the results you're getting financially, go, hey, how can I associate with There's all kinds of ways to network. There's there's churches, there's our church, there's all kinds of different environments. There's business networks. There's all kinds of different things that people can join. There's all kinds of communities. So go join a community and just just like be willing to hear what they think because what what we see what we all see throughout history with people that are that really win whatever winning is they they possess high agency. Yes. Like they really believe whether or not they're right or wrong, right?

46:51 They believe that they're in control. Yep. And so I see that as like a universal principle. I don't I don't I don't need a bunch of u uh background information or quotes or the Bible verses to tell me that like what's the you know my dad told me this a few years ago. He said there's some things that successful people do that are just like their unique expression like you know a person like Elon Musk or uh Albert Einstein or whoever. I mean, these people are just they're just gifted, right? But then there's things that all successful people do. And what you should strive to do is two things. Number one, develop your own greatness. But number two, emulate what all successful people do. And one of the things that all successful people do is they don't blame, right? They take responsibility. They believe that they're in control.

47:43 They work hard. And they work hard. And for some reason that typically over the long span of history leads to really great results. So sitting down and going like you know and I think we've done a good job of that in this conversation like the the aspects of like a government shutdown right now are a big deal in our country and in the day that we live. But if you zoom out from that, you can win in any environment because you're always in control of something. But it but before you get there, just get around the right people. Thank you for listening to The Dialog. Make sure to like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com. Or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.