Joshua Keith Craft

0:51 All truth is God's truth, even when it's found in pagan literature. Right? And so my my like issue I guess has always been that the church doesn't want to interact with anything that's not specifically in the Bible. Right. But but on the other end it's like Buddhism points the way to Jesus. Hinduism points the way to Jesus. Taoism points like all the world but they would they wouldn't see it that way. They would not at all. Like there's Buddhists that persecute Christians. Yeah. I mean, but the true so the like the premise of this is like the true aspects of anything point to a greater truth. Like Plato Plato talked about forms, right? And he talked about how there's like like the he he used the idea of a chair. Like who invented the chair? Nobody invented the chair. It's just like in our minds there's a form of a chair and there's all kinds of different expressions of that form, but there's like the highest form of a chair, right? that we just have like we just have like the idea of Would that be the era of the chair?

1:45 Yeah. Yeah. So like so that's that's Aristotle that's mixing them. Look at that dude. Whatever man I'm deep philosoph I'm starting to get really pretty expert. So so he talked about how there was a form of the good. So the like like bro you you think about society. We've never seen perfect justice. We believe it exists. So we get mad at injustice because in our minds we have a form of justice that have we've never seen. Yeah. [clears throat] But it exists up here. So we think it's real and we have to actualize that in the world. Do you think that that's like God's sort of like fingerprints all over the place? 100%. Because what he talked about is the ultimate form is the form of the good. Yeah. And the he couldn't so he says in his writing he says I can't describe this anymore but I just know that it exists. Uh and then uh later philosophers like Plotus comes and he talks about the one and how there's a person there's an there's like an individual that created that form and then Augustine steps in and really is one of the first people to bridge the gap between philosophy and theology. So it's like to to me I think there's nothing I don't I don't see anything wrong with saying look that's true that's true that's true that's true and all of that points to the truth of God's word.

3:00 Yeah. I I like you're I like that because I think that there's there's a fear um to to like you said to go and look at anything outside the Bible like within Christianity because you're like, "Oh, it's it's paganism." Like they want to like you can get the people who are on the real extreme thing. They're like, you know, Christian Christmas is the midwinter festival. Like Jesus was actually born in the summertime and like this and here's the Yeah. And they have lots of evidence and you kind of go, well, yeah, that's Yeah. I mean, and they're not they're not wrong. I think Paul said, Paul said, "Don't let people take you captive with vain and empty philosophies." Right. syncretism is a risk. So syncretism is saying everything's true. Right. Right. Um that's not what that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying if something is true Yeah. It's a reflection of what's true in the word of God. Right. So like when you and it's almost like our hearts are created to uh to not just align like our hearts are created to resonate with true things.

3:56 Yes. So people get attracted to true things that are in different philosophies or religions or whatever and they're just shadows of truth though. Like they're like like Plato in the cave. They're like the shadows on the wall that you have to be willing to leave the cave. And it's so interesting people people and it shows you like the the um the controversy of Jesus. So interesting because you can talk about all this stuff like all over the world, but then as soon as you start going down the Jesus road, people are like, "Hey, hang on just a second. Hang on just a second on the Jesus thing." Yeah. And that's the ultimate to me that's that's the ultimate truth. That's when you're having to decide because the question uh what you believe about truth is the greatest question you can ask in your life but ultimately what do you believe about truth the question of that is what do you believe about God you know yes man and I think that that is a question that it amazes me that people don't wrestle with that more because like I you know I work with a lot of different companies and I'll talk to people and like invariably it always it always comes back to I'm a follower of Jesus like every one of my clients I've I get to that point in the thing because how could you Not. And what's interesting to me is like sometimes there's just an absolute wall up that they don't want to talk anything further or but then I also find that there's some people who are like against it but over time they like I'll I'll share wisdom with them. I'll share truth with them and they'll kind of like I have I have somebody that I work with that he likes to talk to me when he's in difficult situations and he I know he appreciates because he's told me how much he appreciates my perspective. He knows where I stand. Um and I' I've watched as he's kind of softened to things and I don't know what's going to happen. And I think it's really interesting, but I love that thought that you just said shed said about how there's truth that resonates with us.

5:37 One of the most to me like God is so much more gracious than we can even imagine. He's so much better than we can even fathom and he's truly loving and good and he's also in tandem. He's also very just and he's righteous and and there's so many things that he's he's outside of time. He's beyond our understanding and that that's like something that we should create a a holy and reverent awe. One of the things I think is such an example of his grace is when Paul's arguing with the Athenians and he says God put each man in his time and place and that they would seek him although he's not far from any one of them. And I that to me is like there's so much in that thought that I can like launch off from as far as understanding, okay, I'm here in Texas in this time and like I draw some conclusions about that that make me that I go, okay, God would not put me here in this place on accident like oh you like cuz we're in a very prosperous place. So like I know I'm blessed to be a blessing and I and part of the reason why I sit there and go like God you you brought me here for a reason. I mean I live in a place called prosper, right? Like it's almost like it's almost like I'm getting smacked across the face like hey, you know, and it's not for Yeah, it's but it's not for me. It's not so I can you know have a great 401k and finish at like 45 and that's like my life story.

6:47 It's not like I understand that there's but like I also go okay nothing in your life like the Apostle Paul he could speak multiple languages, right? Like when he stands up and shushes the crowd and he speaks to them in their own language, they're like they're taken back, right? And you start to realize all these different things. He was born in Turkey, right? But he was a Roman citizen. He was also a a Pharisee, a Pharisee, a Hebrew of Hebrews. And all these things kind of come together in this moment and you go, man, how much was God working the details of his life for that exact thing? He was an exact man for the moment. I mean, the Bible the Bible talks about that at the Areopagus, but also there's a there's a a story about when he's in Ephesus that he would go to the synagogue and they wouldn't talk to him, right? And so he goes to this place, we don't really know what it is. It's called the hall of Tyrannus, right? And a lot of people believe it was a philosophical school. Oh, I wouldn't be surprised. So, he goes to the Hall of Tyrannus for two years and talks to them because the Jews won't talk to him for two years.

7:39 Two years. He sat around and and and I a lot of historians say he sat around and and spent time with philosophers and leading people. And that's because he was he was just well acquainted with all these things, you know. I mean, when he went to the Areopagus, he quoted their their poets back to him like Eritus and Epimenides, I think, is how you say the guy's name. But he what because what he's talking about is you guys were talking about the logos, the stoic concept. You're you're talking about Zeus, but all of this was feeling your way towards God. Yeah. You know, and uh welcome to The Dialog. That was like a long intro. I don't even know if that's intro. This might be the episode. This is a good episode. This is a good This is a good talk that we're having. Yeah. Let's keep going. No, I think what you know what's Dude, what's it's just there's there's too much there's too much coincidence for it to be coincidental for me, right? Like I've I've [clears throat] uh this is a good episode to do.

8:34 I want to go down this different but this has been in my mind. I actually really want to get this out because I've been so like I I so I just traveled recently and I I've like I don't know man. I just feel like I I just feel like I I have such a renewed closeness with God. Like I I read the book The Holy Spirit: An Introduction by John Bevere on my father-in-law's recommendation who you love my father-in-law. You got to meet him and he Yeah. You guys Oh man. Yeah. Gwyn's great. Gwyn is the best. He is. And we should have him on the podcast if we ever can. That would be He would% He came on with me and Garrett. Oh, incredible. So, he would happily do that. He's a OG, man. Yeah. He He is a true OG in the faith. But he recommended the Holy Spirit introduction to me and I I read the book and I I as soon as I finished, I started again. And as soon as I finished it the second time, I started a third time. It was it's by John Bevere. It was such a revel revelatory. I mean, I I don't want to go through like a scriptural exegesis of pulling out all the scriptures where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit, but it's worthwhile. Get that book if you have a small takeway. But the reason I'm saying that since that time, I've had such a refresher in my relationship with God where I'll find that God will just move these thoughts in me that are so deeply peaceful that I just feel his closeness. So, I'm in the airport like I'm in the airport in DFW like cuz I just I had traveled I flew three out of four days this week earlier this week. It was a very busy time and I just feel like that like God is just like just putting this desire in me to just really consider truth and and I mean to be to like I I I shared it on my my social media about like really taking account of what you what you place value on because I was looking I found out a detail about somebody's life and I was going man like that they made a decision that was altering basically it was it was a divorce and later on looked back and was like oh I don't know if that was the right because they what they valued had changed.

10:20 And so they looked at the perspective completely different. And my takeaway was really consider what you give value to because what you value now you may not value later. Aka you need to value things that have eternal significance that are are true and right. Like what we said in earlier episodes where you said they they believe that to be happy was to do what's what was it? Good, right, and true. Always good, right, and true. and and I so I think the seeds of you and I doing this podcast plus you know the podcast with Gary just my whole life kind of maturing in me I sat there I was like I want to consider what I value so much because otherwise things fly by you all the time and you just you you'll like compromise at things you won't realize what's actually happening and like I've had this this has been kind of growing in me because I just I sat there one day and I went way down the rabbit hole on chat GPT cuz I started sitting there and I was going like man like we have these gospels right we have these like we have the word of God and it's the most like Jesus is the most well-documented historical figure ever.

11:16 Yeah. And like when and you might go like, "Oh yeah, totally." But like when you think about this, this is like somebody in, you know, if you're in America, this is like some dude in the smallest place in Delaware rising up to become more written about than the president of the United States. It's infathomable that he would be documented not only, you know, massively in Hebrew culture, but then by his enemies. Even even the he even in Jewish culture they referred to the sorcery that he did like he the ma the the magic that he did and so you sit there and you go okay these guys all wrote about it and how improbable is it that we still have these things and then I so I was like okay well how do we have these things they had to write them on scrolls and then you start finding out how expensive it was to get a scroll and how uh you know how you had to hire somebody to transcribe the scroll for you and then you had to find a correct way to store it so that we could have something like the Dead Sea Scroll and you start adding all this stuff and you go hang on a minute man something happened in this little this little part of the world that was under Roman rule that absolutely rocked people so much that it got out not only to the actual rulers of that country but to the people who actually killed him as well as all his followers who went to their death swearing that it was true and also went to the problems of like you know not only I'm going to die you know what I need to do I need to take whatever it takes to get this all down on a scroll and we read this in the Bible where it goes you know I thought it would be good to give this account right and like you know Peter says hey you know my time is coming in second Peter So, I want to tell you, we weren't making up cleverly clever stories when we said we saw him transfigured. They're doubling down. And here we are thousands of years later.

12:43 And I sit there and I just go with that level of conviction when I sat there and I like I sat there. I was like, "Oh my like even though I'm a I'm a Spirit-filled Bible believing Christian, love Jesus with all my heart, literally live my life to follow him." I felt in this moment as I sat there this such this deep conviction. I was like, "There's no way that this could not be true." And as I keep and and like when you have that level of conviction about something because I mean we talk about like how do you know if something's true and you're talking about how there's elements of truth all around it. But to stop and consider and actually go the opposite for me like for me to believe this is untrue is a massive leap of faith because I got to believe that thousands of people went to a lot of trouble for some conspiracy or or whatever. I mean I don't even know what you would say would would drive them to do that. Yeah. People have [clears throat] people have been martyred. People have been given their life. I mean and a lot of those people were people that knew Jesus personally like in the early church. I mean a lot of the martyrdom martyrdom still happens in the world we live in today. But a lot of the martyrdom of the early church I mean you can read about the the emperor Diocletian persecuting Christians. I mean it was brutal.

13:44 Yeah. Oh my gosh. The stuff they did to them. Yeah. And uh I mean you you couldn't if you were a Christian in the Roman Empire, you weren't allowed to own property. You weren't allowed to gather with people. you weren't allowed to be uh a public official. I mean, if they found out [clears throat] you were a Christian, then there would there's all these consequences. There's no incentive. They take they take your family away from you. If they found out that Christians were gathering together, they they'd show up and sometimes they'd kill everybody. Sometimes they would they would just take everything that they owned away from them. And um so it's it's you know, people aren't dying for like uh just this nice little belief or because it's beneficial to them at that point. Not only was it not bene not only was it, you know, it was not that it was not beneficial, it was completely detrimental. Yeah. But that but that to me like, you know, there's there's this interesting thing that, you know, we're we're triune beings, right? So we have a body, soul, and spirit. And I think a lot of people like to go back to your friend or whatever.

14:40 A lot of people don't understand appetite very well. So So uh you know, psychologists all these all these different people say different things about where appetite comes from. M so like a a psychologist psychologists teach that our appetite uh is driven by all these psychological factors right so like people that are emotional eaters or people that uh you know it's like socially eat like they they just they'll just socially or just people that socially drink they they'll do that because they're uh in in uh they they're in an emotional deficit and they want to eat or drink. Uh doctors, medical doctors say a lot of times that we can feel hungry but actually be thirsty because our brain recognizes those triggers as the same thing. Uh uh sociology like like sociologists believe that our appetite is like a comes from a multitude of different places. So anyway, the reason why I'm saying all that is because we all have a body, we all have a soul, we all have a spirit.

15:40 The easiest appetite for us to understand is like physical appetite, right? So we all have a craving for food. We have a craving for pleasure. We have a craving for being with people. There's uh there's like there's uh sexual and nonsexual aspects to that, you know. Um then then we have soul cravings. So like a soul craving is like we have cravings for achievement. Yeah. We have cravings for admiration. We have cravings for influence because of how that makes us feel about ourselves, right? But then there's like a spirit and most people never get to the spirit of the understanding of the spirit. Yes. Right. And so people So if you know the thing I've always found fascinating if they say we can confuse physically hunger and thirst. Right. Yes. Then what that has always kind of meant to me a little bit is that um I can think this is what people do. I can think that if I have enough fun and I do enough fun things I'll be satisfied.

16:35 Yes. I can think that uh you know people that struggle with pornography stuff like that like they they they think okay if I just do this this one time then it'll meet the need but then you got to meet the need again the next day. People that struggle with all of those kind of but then there's people that struggle with emotional issues. They think man if I could just get enough followers if I could make enough money if I could have enough things if I could get enough people to like me then I'll finally be happy. Right? And and what that is is it's not that those appetites aren't there. It's just that we're confusing them for something spiritual. Like Jesus, there's a story about Jesus. Two times in the book of John, he talks about living water. Right. Right. And so in the book of John, the the first time he talks about it is the woman at the well and he's he's tired. They've been walking for a long time. They're in they're in Samaria. He meets the woman at the well and he says to her uh he asks her for a drink and he says, "If you drink the water I have to give, you'll never be thirsty again." And then she says, "Uh, oh yeah, I want this water so I don't have to come back to this well."

17:33 Yeah. Like like people think, "Oh, yeah, she she wants the living water of Jesus." No, he's she thinks in that moment that he's talking about uh the walk like her drinking water so she'll never be thirsty again physically, right? Which is how we interact with this stuff. That is that's such a good Yeah. Yeah, I've never It's how like human beings are where we think, man, if once I get to that point, like whatever that goal, once I get to that point, I'm making $100,000 a year, I'm making a million dollars a year, once I finally get married, once I finally have kids, once I have more freedom in my in my life, once I uh you know, every day every day for me, like, man, I'm so excited. Today's Thursday, it's date night with Courtney, which means I get to eat whatever I want. I did not see that going that way. I'm going to be so happy. I was like, oh, he's going to say how much how nice it is to be with this wife.

18:23 So wonderful to be with my wife and and it's even nicer when I got a big hot dog in my hand. Eat the nastiest, runchiest food I've ever eaten in my life. I get so excited about it. And then the next, you know what? I'm going to wake up tomorrow and I'll be hungry again. You're going to count down to the following days. Doesn't matter how much pizza I go eat tonight, I'll still be hungry the next day. Prove it. So send me a text. We'll put it to the test. Yeah, dude. I want to see it. So, so then Jesus goes, he goes down this road with her where she says she responds to him that way and he says, "Go get your husband and come back." She goes, "I'm not married." He goes, "I know." And you've been married five times, right? She goes, "I can see you're a prophet." Yeah. Yeah. And so, I can see your prophet. And then they go down this whole road. We're at the end of that passage of scripture. Uh Jesus says, "The time is coming when people will worship God in spirit and truth." Right? So, I'll I'll just pause there for a second because then there's another story after that, like that's a couple chapters after that. And the story that's a couple chapters after that is during this this feast called the Feast of Tabernacles, right? It's called Sukata, like in the in the Jewish world.

19:26 And so Jesus stands up in this feast. There was what they it was like this it was like the biggest festival of ancient Judaism, right? It was uh like Burning Man. It was like everyone shows up in Jerusalem. I'm sure Ezra and Nehemiah would appreciate you referring to it as as as burning man. It was like Mo's like everyone shows up in Jerusalem. There's all kinds of parties. There's food. They've got tents everywhere. They build the tents because they're commemorating that they when they were in the desert. It's like it's a remeance. And every day for seven days, they take they take water that they've set apart and they pour it on the altar as a reminder. So, it was like two things. It was a reminder of God's provision, but also like a prayer that God would make it rain for the next year. Yes. Yeah. So then on the eighth day, which is like the peak of the the feast, Jesus gets up. Yep. And he talks about the Holy Spirit, right? He says, uh, let me just let me just pull up the verse really quick. He says, uh, anyone who's thirsty may come to me.

20:19 Anyone who believes in me may come and drink. For the scriptures declare declare rivers of living water will flow from his heart. So then the in par in in parenthesis when he said living water, he was speaking of the spirit who would be given to everyone believing in him. But the spirit had not yet been given. So, so let's put these two things together. So, Jesus talks about he'll give this woman living water. And then he ends that passage of scripture by saying the time will come when everyone will worship God in spirit and in truth. Yeah. Right. Then Jesus says later on in the book of John that uh one day you'll be given this living water and rivers of living water will flow out of your heart. Yeah. Right. And um the the the Greek word the best way to translate the word Jesus uses for heart is inmost being right. So like a spirit.

21:11 Yeah. Right. Jesus tells this woman. So where does living water like come from? Right. Where does this whole spiritual aspect come from? He says worship. So he says the the that living he basically makes this this he gives this perspective that worshiping God in spirit and in truth is what generates this flow of living water into your heart and out of your heart. Right. Right. And that sounds like this deeply spiritual thing. Well, the word for worship in the uh in that time that that Jesus used, the word for worship they used in the Greek is a greeting in the ancient world of how especially in Persia, how people would greet their superiors. So, if an inferior greet a superior, if the person was uh relatively superior to them, they would bow down on their knees. And if the person was like really superior to them, like if you were walking in the street and like the king showed up, you would prostrate yourself before them. So you would lay down on your face in front of them and then you would blow kisses to them.

22:11 Wow. I'm going to start doing that, man. Not for you. I'm saying for God. Yeah. No, I mean, well, for the queen. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] But but so what does that what does that say, right? And why am I going down all this spiritual road? Because we have to come to a place where we fully submit our spirit to God's, right? to the leading. So th this is this is something that feels really mystical to people. Yeah. But the Bible tells us to follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every aspect of our lives. So there is a a there's a spiritual hunger that so like all of this stuff about philosophy for me, right? It's it's pointing to spiritual hunger. It's not pointing to like I want to be emotionally fulfilled. Yes, we want emotional fulfillment. It's not like I just want to be successful. It's I have a spiritual hunger. And these philosophers uh they they all what's so interesting to me when when you read like philosophy and you read the history of these guys all these guys came to the end of their philosophy and it wasn't ever really complete.

23:11 So like Buddha died and one of the last things that Buddha said before he died was seek salvation alone in the truth. So it's like just pursue truth right this general thing right? So then the Bible says Jesus talks about himself as the truth. Yeah. So how do I get to this point? How do I how do I step into this? There's all these different and that's what I'm saying. This stuff can't be coincidental. And I'll come back to this living water thing in a second. So Buddha, he talked about the way. So in Buddhism, it's called Marga. And there's a way out of suffering. Uh Lao Tzu in Taoism, Taoism, the word tao means the way. The Tao is the second most translated book in history besides the Bible. Um, in ancient uh Judaism, all throughout the Old Testament, there's the way of God. It's called Derek Yahweh. And it's all through, you know, this is the way, walk in it.

24:04 You'll hear, you'll hear a voice behind your ear saying, "This is the way, walk in it." And then in ancient philosophy and in following Jesus. So early Christians, right, didn't call themselves followers. They didn't call themselves Christians. That was originally like an insult. It was like you're you're little Christ. Yeah. Little Christ. It wasn't a positive thing, but they called themselves followers of the way because what the idea is of Jesus behind the Holy Spirit is submitting to the his way of living. Yeah. It's it's it's putting yourself in a position where you're seeking to live like this is why Jesus being an example is so unique in the history of all this phil philosophical stuff. Jesus says, "I'm the way, the truth, and the life." How can a person be truth? because he represents to me the best and most true way to live. And if I seek to live like him, what I'm doing is I'm putting myself in a position where I'm allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me. And if I step into following that way, like if I step into following that way, I'll always have my needs met.

25:09 Yeah. My appetites won't be my main concern. Yes. But and rivers of living water will flow out of my heart. And there's a lot of spiritual aspects of that that I think are really beautiful. perspective. Um, but God wants to God wants to help us so much that he sends us the another word that Jesus uses for the Holy Spirit in the New Testament is Paraclete. Yeah. The helper. The helper. Yeah. So good. So the advocate like it's like a lawyer. He sends us a helper to and this is and this is like I think to kind of what we were saying about there's something in us that resonates with truth. Yes. That's that's our spirit because there is a there is a holy spirit. There's just a it's I you know I wish I had a more practical way of talking about it but there is a person that convicts us when we're not in the way of truth.

26:05 Yeah. So people would say your Jiminy Cricket or your conscience . Yeah. Yeah. There is a Paraclete. There is someone who God created that makes us aware that we're not on the right way. And when you get on the right way, you're not you're not just doing it by yourself. That person of the Holy Spirit's helping you. But at the same time, when you get on the right way, you live at more peace than you've ever had in your life. And rivers of living water flow into you where you're not as concerned about like the soul appetite's still there. The Bible says that uh there will always be lust of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. There will always be these three battles that we're fighting. But all those things relate back to the spiritual like the spiritual aspect of choosing to follow God's leading in every aspect of our life. And so if you're listening to this and you want to take that journey, the best thing that you can do what what like what I always say to people is follow Jesus and he'll teach you everything you need to know. Then this is I think a great episode for you guys to start reading the Bible.

26:59 Yeah. And so start in the book of John. What we'll probably add, what we'll probably I'll probably write this write this on my Substack, honestly, is I've got a whole 30 days to discover God Bible thing. I just thought about that while I was sitting here. We didn't plan on talking about this in the episode. You wrote it, but I've got a Bible reading plan that I want to put on you version eventually, but there's a 30 days. It's your 30 days to discover God. Yeah. Oh, I love that, man. And so, thanks. I mean, it's you know, I didn't create any of this stuff. No, but what it'll show we we'll put that on Substack when we launch this episode. And what it'll show you, you can read all through the from the Old Testament to the New where God shows up in the story and how it works. But but really, if you're at this starting point, I want to encourage you like start in the book of John, read through the New Testament, and what I know for sure will happen is the Holy Spirit will speak to you. Yeah. And you'll begin to follow God's leading in every aspect of your life. Yeah. And just a simple prayer. Like I think we make it hard sometimes, but like if God's real, just pray just and like, well, I don't know how to pray.

27:56 Lord, I want to know you. Please show me you in your word. Amen. Like literally I I believe God's a better communicator than we are listeners. Let's let's not just put it in Substack cuz like I'll be honest, I don't even know what that is. Uh but let's put it in the show notes as well. Perfect. So we can link to it, man. Absolutely. I love that, man. Man, what a great what a great talk we ended up with today. We didn't Let's all pat ourselves on the back now to finish. Thank you, Lord, for directing us. Thank you, God, for directing us. We hope we hope this helps you. This is like we'll talk about this stuff more because this is ultimately the longing of all of our hearts is to be connected to God in this way. Yeah. And getting in a flow of that feels it's more than human. Like Wayne W. Dyer said, we're not we're not human beings having spiritual experiences. We're spiritual beings having human experiences. And when you understand you're a spiritual being that you have a spirit that you're not just Spirit-led. You you shouldn't just be Spirit-led terms of having a great spirit about you. You should be Spirit-led terms of really submitting to God in your spirit and allowing God to do the work that only he can do. And he's just it's it's amazing. It's and he's and he's always faithful to do that.

29:05 Thank you for listening to The Dialog. Make sure to like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com. Or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.