Joshua Keith Craft

0:52 Yeah. No, I know. Well, this is what I love about you, man. You're just like, I'll tell you what I'm going to do here is I'm just going to press record and everything that we talk about as we plan this is actually going to be the podcast. So wonderful, dude. So we when we left off though, I feel like we we don't do cliffhangers on The Dialog, but if we did u because I I really like I realized we got off and we didn't really close the story loop of all like cuz you're you have an agent. You have literally have a like what? I have a litary agent. Yeah, literary agent. That's a very well good term. So you have a literary agent. What is that like? Because I remember when you got this. It was like last year. It's been almost a year since you had a literary agent and you got approached out of the blue. So, I feel like we got to tell people that story because this has been a big a big journey for you. Yeah. So, shout out to Rory Green at a live literary agency. And um you know, I've I've written a lot and I I've created a lot and done a lot of stuff and um you know, my my commitment at this point in my life really has been to just serve my dad and be with him. So, I've I've kind of lived through my 20s and 30s saying no to a lot of opportunities. And I'm not saying that as like a brag. It's just I've just known I've made a decision, you know, when you the the the root word for uh decide is the the root words are um dsis, which means to cut off, right? So, yeah.

2:08 So, like when you decide something, you cut off other options. So, I think a part of me deciding to be with my dad uh means that I'm I haven't really spent a lot of time on myself or like my own thing and I don't I don't really necessarily um there's a whole lot of probably pathology in there. I don't really necessarily want to do that. So, I haven't I haven't really pursued anything like that. So, this guy DMs me a year ago and he's like, "Hey, man. I know you self-published a book. Um would you ever consider working with like a traditional publisher?" So my first response was like this really long no, right? So I he told me this. Oh yeah. I sent him a DM back and I said no. And I gave him like 10 reasons. I listed out here's here's the reasons why I wouldn't go with a publisher. Like my dad didn't have a great experience with his publisher. I was when you publish like I care more about the integrity of the work. Like I'm on more on the artist side than like the 100% artist.

3:01 Yeah, we talked about that last like I'm more on the artist side than the marketing side. So, I don't want someone to come in and go, "Hey, I don't know if we can sell this." It's like, "Well, this is the message. I don't care if you sell it. This is what I feel like God's put me on the earth to do." Um, which, you know, there's a I I said that there's a 50/50 to that because you could be you could keep all your integrity as an artist and just do what you want and no one cares because it's so like esoteric and out there and it doesn't resonate with anybody. But the stuff the stuff you create is supposed to help other people in some way. like supposed to if you're a real true artist like a painter or like something like that, you're you're you're supposed to inspire people, you're supposed to change paradigms, whatever that is. Well, if you create stuff and don't consider how it how it affects an audience, you're you're you're just being uh arrogant, I guess, you know. Okay. So, see that I think that's kind of interesting because there's a lot of artists that that they kind of take that uh that approach and it really is about them like like they're going to do something that's like and if you like it then I don't care. Like that's sort of like the stereotypical you know artsy person. So where do you get that thought process that if you do something if you create something it should inspire or bring change? Well, I think there's mastery, right? Like there you have to learn how to be a master of your craft of whatever it is that you're put on the earth to do. And you have to learn how to apply your 1% to that, right? So, I know I know a lot of people on here are familiar with my dad, but he he talks about how you have a 1% that nobody else has, right? To you have a fingerprint nobody else has, leave an imprint nobody else can leave. So, all of us are like these singular authentic not just authentic, but really singular.

4:37 We're one of one, we're one of one in history. And we all have to learn how to master ourselves. And that level of personal mastery looks different for me than it does anybody else in the history of the world. Um, so it's like you got to learn how to do that. But then also there's the there's the balance of God didn't put you on the earth to uh just do stuff for you. And and even and I and this might be a controversial take, but he didn't put you on the earth just to do stuff for him either. Like Jesus didn't come Jesus said I came to do the will of the one who sent me right he said I came to do what what what God came what God uh create or sent me on the earth to do but that was all about people right for God so loved the world that he gave his son so God Jesus didn't come to the earth to just do Jesus's thing right and and that's the challenge I think of like Jesus's life is he gets to the garden of Gethsemane he doesn't want to do it means nothing for him it's not about his sanctification, his salvation, his purification. It's not about any of that. It's about what God wants to do through other people. So for all of us, there's this, I would say, immaturity of what we do that is very much about us. Like it's about me stepping into my level of mastery or what I feel called to or what I'm good at. But then you also have to be able to answer the question like, how does this help other people? How does this how does this guide other people? How does this show other people some kind of way?

6:05 um how does this tie into if you're a Christian, right? It's how does this tie into bringing God's kingdom to the earth, you know? So, it can really easily become I think any kind of like creative thing or even doing what God's quote unquote called you to do, it can become very self-serving because it really is egotistical. It's like you'll have guys like one of the things I heard Brian Houston say for a long time who started Hillsong Church. He said, "One of the best questions you can ask yourself is, is the thing I'm a part of bigger than the part that I play?" And I think people that feel gifted and talented and they feel like they have ability, they think that they're bigger. They're they're bigger than the thing they're a part of. So like you see this, you know, I've been in the church world a lot. So guys will serve underneath a great pastor. They'll serve underneath a great leader and then they'll go, "Hey, I should go start my own church." Yeah. Because I'm too big for this place. And it's not what they say, though. That no one says like, "I'm too big for this place." Right. They they will feel I feel like I'm called to I feel like they'll spiritualize it for sure, right? Yeah.

7:05 Yeah. Every But but everybody knows that dude's just being being arrogant and he's being egotistical and he's like I could do better than and I know I've known so many people like that. I'm not saying that's true all the time. That's not what I'm saying. It's so subtle though, man. Like I I was thinking about this, man. I I'm glad you once again like we do need to I I want to make sure because we did do We're going to get back to feedback at some point. We we No, but we've got to finish the loop of your of your story about with your literary because I think there's so many good good lessons. But here we are getting one. What you I I find, man, and I you tell me if you you think the same thing because we've not talked about this. This is literally like present as of like this morning, my time with God. I I I read Luke uh 4 yesterday, which is the temptation of Jesus in the desert. And what I find there's three things that the devil tempts him with. two of the three he goes if you are the son of God and he you know the three quick three temptations are here turn these bread into stones because you haven't eaten in 40 days look at all the kingdoms of the world they can all be yours I can give them to you if you worship me and the last one is throw yourself off the top of the temple because you know you're God's son right and so like as I was reading these man I felt like I felt the Holy Spirit just d like direct me so much and like 1 John 21:16 where he talks about the ways of the world which is the lust of the eyes lust of the flesh and the pride of life and dude that last one like I really think those are the three tests that Jesus passed whenever he's being tempted. And that very last one of pride of life, you're like, what do you mean throw yourself off the the building?

8:26 That's not pride of life. But it's this thought process of like, I'm different, right? And how much is that like a worldly thing? I'm built different. I'm special. This doesn't apply to me. That is such a subtle like I I felt convicted on this pride literally as I was reading it because I was like Lord I don't want to have my filter for things switch on to needing some sort of affirmation or recognition or validation whatever word you want to use but dude this is so subtle the the thought and that's the thought process that is leading what you're talking about is yeah but I have something unique to give but I and and and you don't realize but your lens has switched onto you. And like I find that I'm getting as go as like the Holy Spirit's refining me more. I feel like I'm getting more sensitive to when my lens switches to myself, dude. It is massively humbling. Like so humbling. And that's that's what happens, right? It's so deceptive.

9:22 Well, I think you know what's interesting? This is we'll we'll just this is what the episode's going to be about. We're just going to engage, bro. Let's go. So, um the the idea Okay. The idea of sin from the Bible doesn't come from the Bible. Right. Right. So it comes from Aristotle. So okay, Aristotle he he wrote a uh he wrote a book on poetry. It's called poetics. And he used this Greek word. He kind of was like one of the first people to use it. He used this Greek word hamartia. So sin, the word sin that we use in the modern day comes from this old English word sin, which means s y n, which means like a crime or a wrong, right? So this word hamartia, it's really, dude, it's really interesting. I wrote about this in the book that's not going to come out yet.

10:17 Way to keep the story loop going, man. That was a pro move. Um so so this idea of sin okay is there is uh all through Greek myth so this is what Aristotle talked about in his book all through Greek myth there was this phenomenon that he noticed that he called hamartia and hamartia is the Greek word for sin so when you exedute the new testament where it talks about sin it uses this word hamartia right and Aristotle if you don't know like the history of this which most people don't Aristotle was came a long time before before the Bible was ever written. Right. Okay. I know that because I read this great book called The Way to Live by Josh Craft. Seriously, that's where I got my timeline for like where all this came in. You were the first that's the book I self-published. If you don't have it, you can get it on Amazon, uh, Audible, whatever. So, the the the the idea of hamartia, it means to miss the mark. And and the way we talk about it in the church world now is, oh, it's an archery term and it comes from ancient archery and it means to miss with the target. That's that's not actually true. We created that later. So we created that to define missing the mark like in in Christian culture. The the real kind of like definition of hamartia comes from Greek myth because what it represents in Aristotle's thinking is a person like a protagonist who makes a mistake that creates a chain of events that leads to disaster.

11:41 Okay. So in Aristotle's world, the cause of missing the mark is a person's poor character that leads to their poor decisions. Right? So so to go back to what you were saying. So then the Bible describes the three uh it doesn't say it this way, but these are like three sin issues that we'll always have. Like we'll always have the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Okay. So, in um in the Odyssey, right, which the movie is getting ready to come out, everyone's kind of halfway excited about Christopher Nolan, although like he's made some weird casting choices, but he's going to ruin that thing. I'm just going to be on record. I don't know, man. He's earned the benefit of the doubt for me. Like, he's made he's he's had so many great films. If I I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to watch it and I hope it works out. So for for reference, Homer's The Odyssey is like one of the most welldocumented ancient uh stories. It's like when you look at manuscripts of Jesus, the Odyssey is like one of the highest ones outside of Jesus for like ancient manuscripts as far as the amount of documentation. So this is an important story.

12:52 So it's and it's like the template for storytelling in so many ways, right? Um so lust of the lust of the flesh, right? Lust of the flesh. Uh, in the Odyssey, there's a there's a particular part of the Odyssey where um uh Odysseus and his men, they're blown off course. The whole journey of the Odyssey is really fantastic. But there's they they land on this island and there's these people on the island that are lotus eaters. They eat the lotus plant. And the thing about the lotus plant is anybody who eats it, they forget home, they forget purpose, they forget their duty. So Odysseus sends three men to scout the island. uh but they eat the lotus plant and they lose all desire to return home, right? So they only want to stay and eat the lotus plant and live in pleasure and forgetfulness, right? So Odysseus drags them back to the ship and uh set sail immediately to prevent anyone else from eating the plant. So lust of the flesh, right? Their their their desire for comfort. So this is the kind of stuff Aristotle talked about. Their desire for comfort made them forget their mission to return to their families, right? and they would have been stranded on the island for the rest of their life. So all of us have this part of us this hamartia. So the the the the idea of sin really biblically but also like it comes from philosophy. This is why like I love living in this world because this idea of sin is we have bad character and our bad character causes us to make bad decisions that we don't realize are bad until we've already ruined everything.

14:25 So, you think you're making a good decision, but you're actually making a bad decision, but you just can't see how it's going to work out. That's exactly how sin works. Like my dad has always said, sin will take you further than you want to go. It'll leave you there longer than you want to stay, and it'll make you pay more than you want to pay. Yeah. So, so, so there's a desire for comfort. There's a lust of the flesh of like what gives us pleasure and what makes us happy. Then the lust of the eyes. Um so after in the story of Greek myth after after Prometheus steals fire he Prometheus steals fire from the gods and he gives it to men and Zeus punishes him right by restraining him with an eagle that eats his liver every day that like constantly regenerates right infinite times right so Zeus also devises a punish so that's how he punishes Prometheus but then he devises he comes up with this punishment for humans so he he this is like the the creation story of women for for Greek myth. So he goes to another the Greek god of fire he hephest and he asked him to create the first woman named Pandora and the word Pandora means all gifted and she was given a gift she was given a gift from each god. So, Aphrodite gave her beauty. Um, uh, Athena gave her skill. Zeus at the very end, he goes all goes through all the gods. Zeus at the very end gives her a foolish and mischievous nature.

15:50 So, he gives her a bunch of curiosity and he gives her a jar and he says, "Don't open this jar no matter what." Right? So, the jar is filled with countless evils and because of her nature, curiosity overcomes her. She opens the jar and the evils of the world like disease, pain, greed, envy, and war, they all come out. So, she slams it late. She slams it shut, but it's too late. And her desire to see what was in the jar unleashed the evil that she couldn't control. Which is again like so interesting that um there's a creation myth. There's a there's a a sin nature myth that gets created that's about something a woman does. Yeah. That like is So, I'm not blaming women. And I'm just saying it's so reflective of what happens in the Garden of Eden. Yeah. I was going to say it's parallel. If you don't see the parallels between that and the Bible, you're you're not paying attention.

16:42 Yeah. And we could we could talk about those things for I could talk about that stuff forever. So lust of the eyes like we all have this curiosity within us and uh there's really like a level of foolishness that we all have that we we pursue certain things because they look good to us and then we get them and then we ruin things, right? So, and let's let's let's real quick I want to pause because I think you I think you were the one that said this because often times when we think of lust, we we think of it's like, "Oh man, I've got to stop thinking about that those chicks or looking at stuff that I shouldn't look at if you're a man." But like a lust is just a desire to have something right now. You can, right? Like you can lust after all sorts of stuff. You can lust for food, right? Like and and people and this is very common in American culture like to lust for food, but we wouldn't say, "Oh, you're lusting after food." I've never heard somebody say that in my life. Yeah. But like, so understand when you say that like lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh. This is like, man, I see it.

17:34 I want it now. You know what I mean? Like lust of the flesh, like I I am craving this. I'm going to get It's like these are all things that are there. Um, so I just want to point that out because when you I remember when you defined that term, you might have even done it on the podcast. I was like, that's very I think it's worth noting. Yeah. So when you So then you get to the pride of life, right? Yeah. So the pride of life, this is the story of Icarus, right? So, so um Daedalus, who's Icarus's father, he gets imprisoned in a tower and he makes wings made of feather and wax for his son to fly to save them. And he says, "If you fly too low, the sea is going to make the wings wet and they'll be useless and you'll crash. If you fly too high, the sun's going to melt them." Right? Icarus takes off. He's so he's so he loves flying so much that he gets caught up and he ignores what his dad said and the heat of the sun melt melt the wax and he falls into the sea. So his pride and his overconfidence lead to his literal and figurative fall. So Aristotle talks about this idea of hamartia. What I think is so interesting and then we'll come back to like more of a practical world is all of these um these three things also tie in with appetites that we have. So we have a spirit, we have a soul, we have a body, right? So what what scripture shows us, what myth shows us, but what scripture shows us even clearer is you're always going to have an appetite. You're always going to have physical cravings. That's the lust of the flesh, right? You're going to want food. You're gonna want experiences.

19:07 You're gonna want uh uh this is a G-rated podcast, but you're gonna lust for all kinds of stuff, right? And that's sexual desires, man. Yeah. That's from a physical it's from a physical place. So, you're born with an appetite there, right? For sure. Then lust of the eyes, lust of the eyes is about your soul, like your mind, your will, and your emotions, right? So, you're going to have things that you think will emotionally validate you. You're going to have things that you uh that will help you I mean not not like help you have a good attitude but you're going to have these like emotional cravings and you're going to have to navigate that. That's like that's what the lust of the eyes represent. Okay. Yeah. Is like Pandora was so curious about exploring all this stuff that she opens the jar and doesn't realize what she's doing. Then the pride of life is a spiritual thing. So the desire that we often have is u for us for for us to be the measure of things like for our for like the pride of life is you and I thinking that we know what's best for us right and that's the tension those are those are these appetites that we're always going to have so people go oh I need to stop sinning right um when really The answer is not to stop sinning. It's to order your appetites appropriately and to understand them.

20:31 So, we're all familiar with the experience of like making a decision that leads to a chain of events in our lives that are good and bad. Yeah. Uh but we're also like and we're also, I think, familiar with the experience of returning to the same decision repeatedly. Like there's there's probably like for everybody who's listening, for you, for me, there's a there's a certain appetite that you and I have for certain things that's different. But the but the commonality is that those appetites are not healthy for us. Yeah, for sure. Right. And um trying to satisfy our cravings this way is hamartia, right? That's what sin is. So even after we realize that something doesn't work, it's still a fatal flaw that can lead to our to our downfall. And what's so interesting, okay, is um in the book of John, there's a story of John of Jesus and he goes and he meets the woman at the well.

21:28 Yeah. Right. And he tells her he he tells her about her life, right? It's a longer story, but he he tells her about her life and he says, "If you if you come to me, I'll give you water and you'll never be thirsty again." Mhm. Right. And he says something really interesting and that's um and the day is coming. So he's talking about hunger and thirst. Then he says in the day is coming where those who worship me will worship me in spirit and in truth. Yeah. Right. So there's h how does like the thing I've always thought reading that is how does why does Jesus make that shift so fast? Like he's talking about giving her living water. She still doesn't understand what he's saying. She thinks he's talking about physical water, right? She's like, "Oh, I never want to be hungry or thirsty again." And then he's like, "Well," she goes, "I'm going to tell everybody." And he goes, "Oh, go get your husband." She says, "I'm not married." And he goes, "I know. And you you haven't been married to the last four guys or whatever it was." Right?

22:26 So Jesus says there there's going to come a day where So we have appetites. We have hunger and thirst. That's what an appetite is, right? What's so interesting to me psychologically is one of the things that um psychologists say is that you can you can have you can a lot of some some people that like struggle with their weight. One of the things one of the reasons why is because they just don't drink enough water. Oh yeah. Because what what happens with people like I see this in my kids. They don't drink enough water and so then they tell me they're hungry all the time. They're not really hungry. They're thirsty but their body's confusing the signals. Yep. Right. So, we have appetites. We have um all of these desires within us. And the way most people live is they're led around by those appetites, but they think that that's what they should do, right? When really it's more like a situation where they're thirsty, not hungry. And I think that's what Jesus is talking about. So, so what is the what is the antidote, right? The antidote to improper appetites is worship, right? Worship is a simple worship is really it's there's a simple understanding to worship. There's like a deeper thing and you you can overspiritualize it. I'm not I'm not spiritualizing it on this podcast.

23:40 Simple definition for worship is to really to do what pleases God. And and if you think in your mind, okay, like I have these appetites, I have these things that I want, but my responsibility is to please God in spite of the fact that I um I've s like the book of Romans, we've all sinned and fallen short of God's glory, right? So, the way like to me personally, I reconcile that is I know to go back to what we were talking about like starting churches and pride and arrogance and all that stuff. I know that I have a default that takes me in the wrong direction. Right. Right. So what a lot of Christians like I I actually thought about this today that um I have a theory that a lot of Christians who blame the devil for what happens in their life that's not good.

24:33 Uh they don't believe in their own inherent evil. So what I what I mean by that is the Bible says in the book of Jeremiah the human heart is desperately wicked. There is this doctrine called original sin which means that the devil didn't make us sin. We sinned because of our improper appetites. Like we all have hamartia in our life. We all have fatal flaws that lead to our downfall. Those fatal flaws don't come from the devil. So, well, but but don't you think like when the sinful nature because I mean he Paul talks about I do the things I don't want to because of the sinful nature and it's like the first Adam, second Adam and I think there's a level of like authority that I don't fully understand there. You know what I mean? Whenever he talks about that that Adam could sin and all of us would then be born sinful. Like clearly there was something going on there that's beyond that that they don't go into detail to explain. Yeah.

25:30 I don't know if Yeah, but keep going. Sorry. So, okay. Well, yeah. So, so then what does it mean to be born again? Right. Right. Like the way to, and again, this is like coming back to worship is like if I'm truly born again, I will understand something that a lot of people don't understand. It's like it feels nuanced. It's really not that nuanced. It's just it requires you to be honest with yourself. And that's I will understand. I am fundamentally broken, right? And I I I not and this is this is in the New Testament as well. Paul talks about this. The sinful nature is um uh is like an abomination to God. It never wants to please God. It never will. There is this thing that's within each one of us that is uh not just antagonistic. It is like fight so hard to not do anything God's way that if we're not honest about having that part of oursel I think on a level we give ourselves over to it.

26:32 Yeah. Because I can say even as a Christian or as a pastor I can say look like I know all the word and I believe all this stuff and can completely be operating out of pride in my life. Yeah. For sure. Right. This is what the Pharisees did. Like the Pharisees understood all of the commands, all the requirements. And what did they do? Instead of, and this is what Jesus talked to them about, you clean the outside of the cup, but not the inside of the cup. So, you're you're you're spending your time trying to demonstrate to people how spiritual you are and how much how much of a god follower you are while at the same time, you know, within you like your own personal hypocrisy. So, what I have to be able to do is admit how hypocritical I am and go, you know what? Like this is the secret of David, right? The secret of David is not that he did everything right. We've heard that message a hundred times. It's not that he did everything right, but he had a heart after God. When he screwed up, like when he fell prey to whatever his appetites were. He said in Psalm 51 after he loses his son, after God takes his son from him because of his sin, he says, "God, create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me."

27:42 Yeah. which is the life that God invites us to live. But it's this I have to have this understanding that I have disordered cravings. Mhm. So I have inherently a desire to to do the wrong thing and that is my fatal flaw in my life. Like what? Yeah. It it takes humility just to get to that point. And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I I wanted to kind I just think about this as well. That's all right, man. I I I thought thought about this. if you were if you were grew up in Hebrew culture, right? Like in Old Testament times, like no one had to explain to you what sin was because as long as you were like came after the Exodus, right? Like I'm talking about like whenever the nation of Israel was established, it was like, "Well, we got these offerings, right? Three times a year we're going up to the temple, like the the high priest goes in once a year." Like the the concept of sin was like very much prevalent. Now, that doesn't mean that they necessarily were great at recognizing it because they obviously had plenty of they kept doing the same things wrong over and over again. But I think what's so interesting in our times now is the very like you're talking about you have to understand that you're, you know, inherently flawed is like a really counterculture thought process to shirts that say you're enough. And we have this whole movement where everybody's like, "Hey man, you should just feel good about yourself." Like body positivity, like be kind. The best in a world full of full of uh and many things, be kind.

29:04 Where you can be anything, be kind. I'm like, dude, is that really the number one thing that we need to do is just make sure we're not hurting people's feelings. And so to now go, oh, hey, by the way, like you have to not only you may not know what sin is, but you need to understand that you're full of it. I find that that's a really like what does that require? Humility, which is like the number one thing that is going to that is required for you to really encounter God. Yeah. So like no like I I no one would say that it's prideful to say be kind or you're enough. But but it really is appealing to something that I think works against this whole revelation that you have to have of I'm sinful aka I'm wrong and I need I need help. Yeah. I think so we're more than will as human beings, right? We're more than willing to admit our capacity for evil, right? Like hey like every human being could has capacity for great evil. Um, what's really hard for all of us to admit is that I don't just have a capacity for evil. I have a desire for evil.

30:03 Yeah, that is tough. Like I have within me as a human being a desire to do wrong. But I'm a good person, Josh. Yeah, but I'm a good person. Like you're not a good You don't have You don't have like You can like God's always working on our heart, right? Which is our motivations and our intentions. You can disguise a You can disguise your motives to literally everybody else. For sure you can, right? Like I could I could talk about my nobility and I could talk about the reasons why I do what I do and no one can see my heart. No one can see God knows. Yeah. Right. So and God describes it. Right. So, so when when scripture like in Jeremiah 17 when the Bible says the human heart is desperately wicked, okay, the the Hebrew word that the Bible uses there is uh a word that just means to disregard God's way.

30:57 So, it doesn't like when we read wickedness, especially in the Old Testament, it's like, oh, witchcraft and demonic activity. It's like, no, that's not that's not how scripture defines wickedness. The way scripture defines wickedness is when you go, "Well, there's God's way, and I'm not going to do that for for whatever reason. I mean, there's a billion reasons, right? But whenever we disregard it, that's wickedness. It's ant it's anti- good behavior." And we have to admit to ourselves, right? I not only have capacity for that, every day, all day, I have a desire to to for that, right? It it's it's interesting because he I have a friend over in Israel and he was explaining this to me that in in Jewish culture they don't really like to your point they're not talking as much about sin as what as much as they're talking like and sinful nature they're talking about positive and negative inclinations and like they're kind of saying the same thing but they're talking about how you have these things positive and negative inclinations and you need to go towards the positive ones. I find it really interesting to because you when you read Paul's when you read Romans, you see this kind of fleshed out with the revelation of spirit and and the regeneration of having the Holy Spirit. So anyway, sorry.

32:04 No. So I have two things, right? I have a nature, right? And I have appetites, right? So if I'm not honest with myself about my nature, then what I'm going to do is I'm going to think what my nature says I should do with my appetites is the right thing. Right. Right. And that could happen that could happen at any point. I mean, that's that's the thing is like I've been married to Courtney for 12 years. And uh I love my wife. I love my family. I it's it's it would be very costly if I went out and jeopardized my family in some way and I cheated on my wife or whatever. But that temptation, whatever the temptation would be, would always be there. Right. Right. So, like people think, well, the longer I'm married, the less I would ever want to step out on my wife or whatever. I don't I don't necessarily personally have a desire for that, but some but if I open myself up, right, which is what has happened to so many friends that I've had, right?

33:04 Right. They get in a fight with their wife, they go through a tough season, and they start leaning on other women that are going to meet some kind of emotional need that their wife's not currently meeting. Yeah. Right. That's that's hamartia. That's not you didn't have an affair then. I mean people call it an emotional affair. Whatever. We'll let psychologists discuss that. My thing is more like you've you've now stepped into you you've you you don't admit your fatal flaw. So then you've stepped into making a decision that has untold negative consequences for your future. Yeah. And you just think that oh I'm just kind of pursuing like I just want to feel good about myself. Like this is so many guys do this right. Me and you, we we live in like the world of a men's ministry, Mighty Men, where we hear these kind of stories all the time where guys go, "Man, I just wanted to feel good." And I this one this girl came along and she made me feel good about myself and my wife doesn't do that and then I ended up in a five-year affair.

33:59 And I'm not really sure how that happened. It's like, well, it happened because of two things. It happened number one because you didn't admit your nature is to do evil. And number two, because you didn't admit number one, you you allowed yourself to be led by your sin nature. So, so like to get on the positive side. So when Jesus is talking to the Samaritan woman at the well, he tells her this, the cure for all this is worship, right? And he uses this Greek word, and I don't I don't have it like in front of me right now, but he uses this Greek word that describes in the ancient world a greeting between an inferior and a superior. So, so when a person at that time in history when a person would who was like an inferior would greet a superior, like if you're just a citizen of the country and you're you're greeting the emperor, right? Yeah. You would fall on your knees, touch your forehead to the ground, and depending on how high ranking the person was, you would even prostrate yourself all the way down to your face on the ground and blow kisses towards them.

35:05 Man, that's good. So, the reason why people would do this is because it represented the total submission and reverence of an inferior towards a superior. That's so good, man. Especially in the context like people would do this when they would come into like there's stories about uh the emperor of Persia and people coming in to greet the emperor of Persia and them needing his help, right? Begging for help. Well, this is the way that they would beg for help is they would just get down on their face and lay down and then blow kisses towards them like, "I'm so submitted to you. Please help me." Right? So the cure for these disordered appetites and the the way we navigate our sin nature, right, is not like, hey, let me just go to worship and lift my hands during your church service. That's a part of worship, but worship fundamentally is a life of uh spiritual submission.

35:58 Yeah. And you touched on it in church and once again I'm jumping in but I I think it's really underrated to cultivate like we all know you go to church they play some songs or whatever it is and you you call that worship. I want to encourage people don't just do that at church. I I can tell you Josh one of the greatest joys where I've I have found such a depth in my relationship with God is to cultivate that type of worship in song because it's the same thing dude. I get on my knees like I I put my hands up like in surrender and and genuinely behold who God is. And it is such a reminder of how great he is. And nobody It's like I always reference Isaiah 6 whenever he he encountered him. When you encounter God's presence, no one needs to tell you you're sinful. Like when he saw when he saw he said, "Woe is me. I'm a man of unclean lips." No. If you know story in Isaiah 6, no one said, "Hey, by the way, what are you doing here?" Or, "Uh oh, you're in trouble." He just knew.

36:51 Because when you encounter God like that, it's like, "Oh, man. you you very quickly realize and that I think I've read that one of the Greek translations of the definition of humility isn't to compare yourself to others but to compare yourself in light of God which brings humility because and that's exactly when you worship no one needs to say hey be humble it's like dude how could I be arrogant look who I'm look who I'm encountering yeah so I I want to encourage people like cultivate that privately as well it's like I'm sure a lot of people have seen the video of Shia LaBeouf on uh channel 5 or whatever with Andrew Callaghan where he's like what would you do if Jesus like if you If Jesus walked in the room, he's like, "I wouldn't say anything, man. I would just like if if Jesus a broken man in that clip." Yeah. But he knew he fundamentally understood what worship would be in that moment. Yes. Right. It it wouldn't be about any kind it would be like, man, I just like literally prostrate myself before God. Right.

37:42 Yeah. So, so then what does it mean to do that spiritually, right? So, there's this there's this there's all these appetites, there's all these dynamics like within us, right? And so what people do, our greatest and our deepest hunger is a spiritual hunger. Yes. Right. And a spiritual appetite, spiritual desire can only be satisfied through spiritual means. Mhm. Right. So, so, so where the lust of the eyes and the the subconsciously or unconsciously thinking that if we f thinking we can fulfill the lust of the eyes, thinking we can fulfill the lust of the flesh, thinking we can fulfill the pride of life is like think is like drinking is like eating when you're thirsty because what what we all see when we navigate these things in our own life is that does not fill me up. Mhm. Like you can look at a guy like uh you know some some people are listening might might know who like Dan Bilzerian is. Dan Bilzerian lives the ultimate party guy life has slept with a million women. They're all the the models and the pretty and he when he talks on like podcasts and stuff he's like man none of this stuff even does it for me anymore.

38:53 Yeah. You know and he's got pretty much unlimited money. The dude drives around in tanks in Las Vegas and does whatever he wants. I mean has has been able to fulfill like this is the the book of Ecclesiastes, right? The Yeah. the poster boy for hedonism. Yeah. Yeah. The writer of Ecclesiastes who's supposedly Solomon says, "I've I have tasted I've done everything. Like I have maxed out my life and I've come to the end of it and gone this is all vanity. This is all meaningless." Right? And why would why would people like that say that? It's because they have a spiritual hunger that can't be quenched through the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Like you can't make enough money to fulfill your spiritual hunger, right? You can't have enough followers on Instagram. You can't uh have enough people around you who validate you. What whatever that would be. And so, so there's a spirit that our spirit is supposed to be submitted to, right? And we talked about the conviction of the Holy Spirit last time, but there's a spirit that our spirit's supposed to be submitted to. And uh yeah, we're body, soul, and spirit, but our primary thirst is spiritual.

40:01 Right. So the way we satisfy our spiritual thirst is what you're talking about, and that's our connection to God. Yeah. Right. And then what I think God does is when we learn to satisfy our spiritual thirst by really by really living a God-first life and seeking to. It's not it's this isn't this isn't one of those things that's about, hey, let me make sure I follow all the rules so that God's happy with me. This is this is about living your life and going, you know what, God, I know you created me. I know you have a destiny for my life. I know there's uh there's there's all that this stuff that I'm concerned with and all, but you know what, God, I just want what you want. When you get to this place and you go, God, I'm just going to pursue you and I'm going to I'm going to try to become who you've who you've created me to become, who you want me to become. Then what I'm going to do is lay down the lust of the flesh. I'm going to lay down the lust of the eyes. I'm going to lay down like the pride of life. And you know, as it relates to my own journey, you know, one of the things that uh I I and I probably heer on this side like too much personally in my life, I want everything in my life to really um to really be about what God wants.

41:12 Yeah. And so God will have to hit me upside the head with an opportunity for me to take advantage of it because I I really and and this isn't like a humble brag or anything like that. I really I really don't want to ever put myself in a position where I'm doing me. I don't I just don't want to do that. And I've because I've seen it go bad for so many people. Yeah. Right. Let me ask you let me ask you a question along the lines of that because I I I I totally get that. I know we're going to wrap soon, but I was thinking about this and uh I want to make sure I ask it because I think there's other people out there that might be dealing with the same thing as they hear you talk. So, we've talked and highlighted at length about how much there's sinful nature and how you need to be conscious of the fact that you have, like you said, a wicked, deceitful, inherently evil heart, like that you desire evil. So, I I think you could come out of this and just be like, I'm a worm. I'm a terrible person. Yeah.

42:03 And like nobody, you know, I I am just I'm just horrible. And at the same time, this is this is in this in that same Bible, there's plenty of scripture that says, "I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. All your works are wonderful. This I know full well, right?" And so it's like and we're made in the image of God. So it's like on the one hand, you're like, you know, those two things are in complete like opposite direction. Yeah. It's like it's like parallel. So how do you how do you balance that to have a healthy like helpful view of these things? Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll say I'll say personally for me, it's two things, right? And uh we'll have to we'll have to save this whole book story for another episode. Dude, this is the book story that's going to take a year. And I'm I'm good with it, man. By the time we're done talking about this, the book's going to be out. You'll have a new book out. And people like, "What was that book?" Like, "I don't even remember." Yeah. Um I think for me, there's two things.

42:56 There's number one, how much do I really desire desire God and desire to to to really follow him, you know, and submit to him? Uh the second thing for me that I think is the hardest journey for so many Christians is um how well do I submit to spiritual authority in my life? Well, dude, there's a whole another podcast right there because that's Yeah, we we could come back to it, but I'll close the loop on what I said earlier. So, a lot of guys will go, they'll serve a pastor, they'll serve underneath a leader, and they'll do that faithfully, and then they'll feel called to go do their own thing. And then they'll go to their It's rare for them to go to their senior leader and ask permission. Right. Right. It's even more rare for them to listen to the senior leader. Like I remember um I think it was Chris Hodges who started Church the High, one of the largest churches in America now, might be the biggest. He would tell this story about he was he was a youth pastor for a um for a pastor named Larry Stockdale still in Louisiana and he felt it might have been Chris it might have been another guy who's in their world who's named Randy Bezet I can't remember but the story is still true so he goes to he goes to his pastor and he's the youth pastor he says I feel like God's calling me to start a church and I'd love to have that conversation and his pastor says to him you know we're not going to have that conversation right now I'll let you know when it's time to have that conversation Wow.

44:21 So, he could have just left and like done his own thing, right? Um, a year later, his pastor calls him into his office and says, "Hey, I think, you know, I think now's the time for us to talk about you launching your church." And they got behind him and they supported him and I don't think there's any mystery as to why they're one of the most influential churches in the world today. Right. Yeah. We've had So, I'll tell you like our own story. So my my journey has been with this like so with this I'll come back to my story with with my agent. We've had at least three churches start out of our church. Right. Okay. One person did it. Right. Right. So let me just be honest about how how the journey has been for these churches. So the first church that started out of our church started about 16 years ago. They are the same. They're in the same place at the same size as they were when they started.

45:18 Uh the second church started uh sometime around COVID. They're in the same place, same same place they were when they started. The third church is Pastor Jeremy's church, Elevate Life in Connecticut. Pastor Jeremy sat on with my dad and said, "Hey, I feel like God's calling me to start a church." And he said to him, he said, "I won't do it unless you send me to do it." These other two guys uh were completely unwilling to have that conversation at any point. They were going to do they were going to do it anyway. Um Jeremy says, "I won't do it unless you do it, unless you bless us to do it." My dad says to him, he says, "You know, I feel like he it was like this whole emotional moment." He goes, "Would you guys be willing to be in Elevate Life?" And Jeremy said, "Yes, absolutely." And they went up there three or four years ago. It's probably four years ago now. They're uh the fourth fastest growing church in America in in in Wallingford, Connecticut, in the middle of kind of the middle of nowhere in Connecticut. They run 3,000 people on a weekend.

46:21 They they're they're just God's just put his hand on them. And why is that? And in my opinion, it's because you understand the dynamic that comes with being submitted to spiritual authority. So yeah, for me I think and John Bevere who's a friend of ours, friend of y'alls, wrote an amazing book called Undercover about this and I think there's so much depth to spiritual authority, but for me it is those two things. It's how much do I want to please God, but also how much do I serve the leaders that God's put in my life. So when I was approached with this literary agent, he's like, man, I think the world needs your voice. I'm not really that influential of a person. I don't have like a big network. I don't have a lot of friends that, you know, usually the way you sell a book is you um you go travel and you speak at other people's churches and you have a big newsletter and you have a mailing list and all this and I don't have any of that, right? So I'm like, why would this guy want me to? He just says, "Man, I feel like the world needs your voice, right?" And so I I kind of I said, "Okay, let me think about it." And I went and I sat down with my dad and I said, "Hey, like I didn't pursue this opportunity. This isn't something I'm looking for. This is an opportunity that I have. And this literary agency is one of the largest literary agency that works with Christian. I mean, they're Bob Goff's literary. They're a big deal, right?

47:37 People would dream of having a call like you got or a DM. Even if I wanted to work with them, they don't accept submissions. They're like that kind of place. So, this these these people reach out to me, right? And again, and I connect the dots in my own life like differently. I've spent a lot of my life up to this point just serving and playing a role and being whatever, you know, I could be to serve the leader that God's put in my life that I chose. And then God brings me an opportunity. But then the test is, do I do I still have the submission in a spiritual authority sense to go submit that to my leadership? So I sit down with my parents. I'm like, "Hey, you know, this is an opportunity and they really want to work with me, but um I won't do it if you guys don't want me to do it." And so my dad was like, "Yeah, you should absolutely do it." And I think that's where we'll end the story for today. You know, we'll talk we'll talk about how that's how that's gone. But um one of the best things if you're like if you're listening to this and you're navigating your own dynamics that are like what I'm talking about, one of the best things you can learn before you make a decision is the the power of u submitting to spiritual authority. The power of submitting to God. But then what God does is he brings people into your life who are authorities for you to submit to.

48:53 And they're not perfect. They don't make every right decision. Correct. Um, but there is a dynamic that has to take place where we walk in not just submission to God, but submission to leaders that God's put in place. And that's a really, really long conversation, but I encourage you to read two books on that if you want to really learn about it because it'll Well, I I'll say this before I say the books. Like the greatest misunderstanding I think in leadership in the church especially in Christianity but in leadership in general is spiritual authority. If you understand spiritual authority you unlock God's blessing on your life like David. Let's do it for the next episode bro. I feel like we have to now. Okay. So we'll come back on this but two books that I would encourage you to read if you really want to learn about this.

49:44 The number one is Undercover by John Bevere which I just referenced. The second one is Spiritual Authority by uh by Watchman Nee. That's an all time alltime classic and you should also learn Watchman Nee's story as it related to how he navigated authority as a Chinese national in China being persecuted as a Christian um and being in jail for a lot of his life. But it was a fun episode. Thank you for listening to The Dialog. Make sure to like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com. Or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.