Joshua Keith Craft

0:52 So, you're you're treating people as a cost, not an investment. And when you live life that way, you go, we're gonna we're going to cut costs. Yeah. And people you cut people. Yeah. So that's that's where the idea came from of having a different having a different approach. Guess we have a dog in the podcast today, dude. Bears Bear's the dog the podcast dog. I guess that but that's where the idea came from because like so many people in their business life they treat um they treat people like they're just a cost center that you know but if you treat people like an investment and you go okay you have value to add and my job is to do everything I can to extract that value like to value from the value that you add you you don't treat people like a cost and I think you get the best part of them so that's the idea It's it's such it's an interesting thing that you that you put that into though, man, because um there like mass layoffs is is was never a thing in our society until like the 1980s whenever we went to like you know, okay, everybody's like shareholders like Gordon Gekko, greed is good stock market. Yeah. Like maximize. We became a shareholder economy of where it's like well I've got to report to my shareholders and my shareholders want money because beforehand companies like we're going through a hard time but like jobs for life was a thing.

2:12 Yeah. Careers are right. So we kind of officially transferred our values from being about people to being about money and performance, you know, performance based on money. We made money the metric for success. So now it's like, oh man, my biggest expense is is my uh is my people capital. Oh, you mean the human beings that work for you. Guess what? They're also your greatest asset if you if you m if you look if you choose to see them that way. And I think I think it's really interesting because you see that subtle shift in society. And I and I feel like it's you know that happened in the 80s. So here we're what 35 plus years on from that. And it's like it's worked its way into the way that people deal with each other because it's about efficiency. It's like industrialization gone mad. It's about efficiency. It's about like getting this end result. And we've never questioned and said like, "Hey, is the end result actually worth pursuing?" Because nobody's going like, "Yes, man. I screwed over a thousand people, but I got an extra million dollars to die with." Sweet.

3:06 Yeah, that worked out well for you. I think Yeah, I think there's like a, you know, you can focus on what something costs you or you can focus on what something creates for you, right? So, if you treat any kind of relationship like as a as a transaction, you're focused on cost versus benefit, like going, "Okay, well, I'm going to I'm going to hire this person. It's going to cost me this much money. They have to benefit, right? They have to benefit me this amount." Yeah. Based on the cost. It's a math equation. When you treat someone, when you go, "Okay, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna look at what this can create." Well, you're kind of it's this deeper philosophical thing of bringing this person into my world. There's opportunity for us to create value together, right? And for us to create a win-win scenario, which most people don't don't think about that. They they most people really, especially in the West, we're conditioned, you know, I don't know. I mean, the mass layoff thing is interesting. I don't know where that came from because like in the Western world, we're conditioned to focus on individual advantage pretty much above everything. Yeah. So, as long as like my job in a relationship is to take care of me winning, right?

4:15 And your job is to take care of you winning. Yeah. It's not a zero-sum game, bro. We'll both just win. Also, I may cut your throat, but we're both Well, I think Yeah. People are saying it's not a zero-sum game. And they they they behave differently. They want to behave that way, but then in their mind, everything's a zero. Scarcity mindset. So, here's the thing that's so interesting because like uh and d I I got to say on a side note, I'm enjoying doing our podcast together because what I'm finding is that because you and I are developing like a different muscle in my brain. I'm I'm I feel like it's expanding my thinking in like in other scenarios to kind of like when people say things I'm like let's let's examine that and go underneath it. You know what I mean? Like so I'm really enjoying that on a side note. But so like yeah, thank you man. Welcome to episode uh what is this? Episode five. No, six episode six. Episode six, everybody. Yeah, we're in the top 1% now. Are we really? Oh, no. We're We're officially average, bro. Oh, we're officially the average podcast.

5:06 Yeah, six. If we record another one after this, which we're going to. So, it's six. Six is the average. The reason we're saying that is cuz the 99% of podcasts, the average podcast only goes for six episodes. That's crazy. This is crazy. So, like to, you know, as soon as we finish this one, we start the next one, I'll shake your hand, say, "Congratulations. You're slightly above average. We're above average, baby. Let's go. We're on the way. We're on the way up." I love that you remembered that, man. Uh anyways, but but so going back to the shareholder thing and this is why I said like people don't ask if this is a worthwhile goal because what's going to when we're talking about transactional versus transformational and how we treat people and how we view things, you have to have like a a a purpose behind that, right? Like what's the mission aka what's the purpose for this for what you're doing? Because the purpose for what you're doing is going to determine a lot of what you do. Like if you're, you know, if your if your purpose is to survive, you're going to eat and drink anything that you that you can if you're stuck in the forest. If your purpose is to go on a nice walk, you're just going to like look around at all the trees and you're going to be like, "Oh, I would never eat that."

6:05 Right? And so what I think people what's happened in business and people don't realize that this is sinful is instead of being about creating change and serving a purpose and serving the people that you're entrusted with, aka your customers, people make it about like, well, it's about me making as much money as possible. And they don't they first of all they don't realize that they've shifted to that because it's so commonly accepted. It's like well of course businesses are there to make money. And it's like no making money is a result of get of bringing value. And so it's like there's a very very different attitude. And so I'm using that in business because some people be like well yeah I'm going to cut these people uh because I'm not building a family. And I would say okay yeah I get that you have a mission and if somebody's not serving the mission I don't have a problem with getting rid of people personally. But what I do have a problem with is just going like, "Hey, you know, we're going to pursue this thing." And, you know, we're gonna have to we're going to report 5% less to our shareholders if we don't cut you. So, guess what? You and those thousand other people that we hired last year, and tech companies do this every year around this time because they're starting to clean up their books. We're just going to lay off these people. Oh, okay. And it's become so normal.

7:04 Yeah. So, so the mission for them, even though they wouldn't say it, these are people who have great mission statements on their wall like we're here to transform the software industry and whatever, right? They their real mission is we're here to make as much money as possible. And so, like the question I would put for people listening and I would like us to explore is like what is the stated purpose or mission for your friendships? Yeah. Or like Yeah. I mean, in general and how you approach relationships. Yeah. you know. Um, so we're talking about transactional versus transformational relationships. And um, the idea, you know, the the idea, right, is that people who are transactional, they treat relationships as a cost. People who are transformational, they treat relationships as an investment. And um, so, you know, I think the first thing is if you have this transactional mindset in in relationships, you're always thinking short term, right? So you're always thinking like okay I gota I gota I got to get this in this amount of time. You don't you you also think you also think small in terms of you don't think the world can get bigger. So you you don't think that you know if you see people as a cost.

8:14 What you believe is that your pie is only a certain size. Yeah. And you're giving them a piece of your pie, but they need to give you back like an equal piece of the pie. You know, you don't believe that the pie can get bigger, right? And a person who's transformational, they're they're growth-oriented and they believe in like the compounding value of a relationship that it's like this, you know, we talked about that in about the premise of the podcast like when you get in relationships with people, you know, there's there's all kinds of cool things about relationship. There's compromises. There's there's all this stuff that and compromises aren't a bad thing, but there's you create a third way between two people that wouldn't have otherwise existed that creates a different set of value. So whether that's thinking about a business partnership and what what business partners can do or or like having kids. So you get married and you you treat you hopefully I mean ideally right we treat our marriages as transformational relationships.

9:08 Yeah. So I don't think a lot of people do. Yeah. But you get married and and you can multiply together what you could not produce separately even like in the physical with children. Right. And so you create something that is bigger and completely different than what any one of you could done could have done by yourselves. Well, in a marriage, if you treat your marriage as a transaction, which like you're saying, a lot of people do. I mean, this is like a deep concept because you know, okay, how do I treat my marriage as a transaction? Well, if I come into my marriage and I expect uh my wife to meet all my needs for me, Yeah. without me doing like you're just a wife and that's that's what you do, right? You know, I come in and I say, "Well, here's how it's going to be and you're going to do this, this, and this because this is what I need out of you." That's that's treating my spouse as a transactional relationship, which is really just about me going, "Okay, well, it cost me something for me to get married to you on whatever level, and I need to I need to receive a requisite benefit to that."

10:12 Right? But here's so what's so interesting about using marriage as the first template for transactional versus transformational is I I don't this is where I think I love that we're exploring this from philosophy, theology and uh and and and like historical context because like where if where where are you learning what a marriage should be? Yeah. Right. because I don't think a lot of people I I had an interesting conversation with a group of men that I meet with every Friday um and I asked them what should a man be and these are guys who are all in our circle and like all Bible believing Christians and even in that you start to you get guys that will say things you'll be like okay where did you get that from and it's like uh cuz cuz everybody's going to be like well what about this scenario and so like I don't think people construct like a source of truth very with with any sort of u intentionality yeah I think people by and large were we're were and our brains are wired for this. This is like part of one of the greatest things you could get from listening to this podcast is that you would stop and go like hey why do I think that like I think if you if you just started doing that it you would grow massively.

11:16 Yeah it's a great question that my dad uh tells people to think is who who tells people to ask themselves who taught you to think the way that you think. Great question you know and do you like it right? I mean, do you like to, you know, a lot of us, like I was, I was talking to a guy this week and um he was asking me, so he's a he's a friend of mine and he he comes from like an abusive background, abusive family, and he knows my dad, my parents are wonderful. So, he's asking me like my opinion on uh on spanking, on all these different kind of marriage and relational dynamics. And uh Oo, a sip of the strong leaded coffee for dramatic. This coffee is really strong. Yeah, I told you. Yeah, I'm not sure you put much water in here. This is This is just like pure sludge. I'll drink it all. What were we talking about?

12:07 You were saying you were talking to this guy asking about spanking. Well, you took a sip of your coffee right midsentence, which I didn't expect. So, I felt like I had to fill the airspace. Thank you. Yeah. For the listeners, man. Um he he asked you about spanking. You were having a conversation with a guy that you know. Yeah. I can't remember. Let's go back to what you're saying. Awesome. Well, that's I'll come back. This is a real conversation here, friends, you know. So, no, but what I what I was saying is like, so you you saying what your dad said about who taught you to think the way you think is so valuable. Oh, yes. Okay, I got it. Now, do you want to do you do you want to pick back up? Yes. So, so I was telling him, you know, he goes, "What do you think about, we were talking about spanking your kids, all this different stuff, but he goes, I want to ask you a question." I said, "Okay." He goes, "What do you think about the Bible when it says the sins of the father are passed on to the right, you know, fourth and fifth generation?" And this is not really a topic of this podcast, but I'll take a second to say it cuz I think it's like goes with what you're saying. Who taught you to think the way that you think? So sin in the Bible, in the Greek world, the the word sin is a Greek word hamartia, and it doesn't come from the theological thinking. It comes from philosophical thinking and actually like plays and stuff. So Aristotle wrote a book called the Poetics and he introduced this concept called hamartia and hamartia is the the the the literal translation is what we we talk about a lot and that's miss the mark right but what he the concept of it is it is a decision that a character makes that that is the pivotal decision that leads to their ultimate destruction right so like Pandora's box so in the story of Pandora's box Pandora had all these gifts from the Greek gods was given all these gifts and was given the gift of curiosity and she was given it wasn't really a box it was actually a jar but she's given a jar and because of her curiosity she made the decision to open it and unleashed all the suffering on the world that's what like Greek myth says right so hamartia like is this con this idea that that you can come to a place of decision where you make a decision and that leads you down a cascade of bad events that lead to your destruction So you're headed in the right direction.

14:11 You make a decision to go in the wrong direction. So I was telling this guy that because when you read about sin in the Bible, that's what sin is. So yeah, it's this. It's the word hamartia, which people say comes from archery. It doesn't come from archery. They used archery as an example of hamartia. So early Christians would say it's like archery because a lot of people did archery thousands of years ago. So it's like archery when you aim at the target, you miss the target. But it's a bigger concept than that because it's so what does that mean? The sins of the father are passed down to the son or the fourth and fifth generation or whatever. What that means is is the criteria. So we've talked about this before on this podcast, but criteria for making decisions is your philosophy. So you're going to learn from somebody how to think. Yep. Right. Sin is the fundamental concept is making decisions that you don't realize that are bad decisions that ultimately lead to your destruction.

15:07 Yeah. Right. So without realizing it, we're being taught how to think by all the people that we're around all the time. And that starts really young when we're kids. Yeah. And so how does what does that mean? The sins of the father passed on to the son or the next generation. Um, humans are modeling creatures. Like we model whatever is in front of us. We're kind of built that way. Yeah. Big time. Right. Um, you can't you can't really say where that comes from. It's just a way that we are. God made us that way. We're built to follow. We're made to follow things. We're made to model ourselves after things. Like there's there's there's always been famous people and influential people that we dress like them. We look like them. We talk like them. There's been trends. I mean, we're just built walking and talking. Look how your kids walk. You don't sit there and go like today we're going to learn English where they just they're around you all the time.

15:57 So modeling is a huge aspect of foundational aspect of human behavior. And so the way that your parents make decisions has a direct correlation even causation I would say on the on the way you make decisions. Yeah. And the way to avoid that or to lean into that, like if you had great parents or if you had great models in your life, the way to lean into that is to intentionally go, what would so- and so do in this situation? Right? The way to lean out of that is to be intentional about about your thinking and go, okay, like this question, who taught me to think the way that I think? Uh because then I can ask, is that is that level of thinking fruitful? Right? And so like a lot of guys will be like it's they they'll they'll their dad will have had anger issues and they'll go I'll ne you know I'll never yell at my kids. I'll never be angry at them. I'll never whatever. And they have kids and they they their worst nightmare comes true.

16:57 Yeah. That they kind of become the dad who like yells and is angry at their kids and they don't even understand why. Right. And the the reason why that is is because it's hamartia. It's a It's a decision that your dad made to be the way that he is. And if you don't intentionally change that decision, that's just what was modeled for you. Yeah. And uh if you don't ever get to the place in your life where you're like, "Oh man, this is actually a learned behavior. This isn't actually maybe me. This is something I've learned." If you don't get to that place where you're acknowledging that or or aware of it, you can't ever be intentional about it. And so you end up reproducing this generational stuff. And I know a lot of like probably spiritual people that are listening this like, "Well, that's like that's a generational curse. That's what generational curses are and all that." And I don't really personally go that direction. Yeah. Not because I don't believe in generational curses, but because I'm all about control.

17:48 Well, not about being in control. Explain it in a different way. I'm all about understanding that you have control for sure. And and it's not, you know, um we're talking about transactional versus transformational, but I guess where that starts, right, is in how you think. Yeah. And you learned, which is what we were talking about, you learned how to approach relationships a certain way. Yep. And in the culture we live in, you we we it's so interesting. I actually went to a mastermind this week and uh we talked about this. So in the culture that we live in, the culture says you should never be geared towards your own individual advantage, right? like you should. So people behave like they're looking for the win-win and they behave like oh yeah like I want to do what's best for you and let's like in business deals or whatever but then really like internally the way that they approach their life is that I have to win right and they approach every relationship that way. They approach a business relation relationship that way. They approach their friendships that way.

18:49 They approach a marriage that way. So how do I know that I'm how do I know I'm approaching things that way? Well, if I'm sitting there asking a question, how does this serve me? Yeah. Like, and that's a huge I don't know that people even know they're asking that question. Well, but that's a huge thing that people teach. It's like, well, you should you should only be in relationships that serve you. Yeah. I'm getting rid of toxic people. What if you're one of them? Yeah. Like, well, like, is that is that really the goal of me having relationships is for me to just be a person who all I do is extract value? Like, I don't ever add value. My only focus. So, here's one of the ways to know you're being transactional is if your focus going into a relationship is how does this serve me, right? Not not how do I add value to this person, not how do I serve this person, but how does this person serve me? And that's what culture is currently teaching us. Like, you could probably if you're watching, I don't know if we post this as a real or if you're watching this on YouTube, you could scroll to the next video and if you go far enough, there's probably going to be someone saying you should only find relationships that serve you.

19:46 Well, yeah. And and so I was going to ask you because I do think there's an element of wisdom uh to you know what you don't want to be is the person who's like I'm going to change my life and I used to be a heroin addict. I'm using a really obvious extreme example. You didn't but actually no I didn't. I'm just I'm using this I'm saying this as a I'm saying this as a as a sample. The royal we the royal we but like so you don't go like you know what I want to get out of this situation but I'm still going to keep hanging around all my friends who are addicted. Like so my question to you is like how do you know you know what are the criteria for understanding you know what are good relationships then because I would I hear what you're saying and I think like so I I'm from California originally and what I one of the things that drove me what like bonkers about California one of the reasons why I'm so glad we're in Texas and this this showed up in such a simple way when I was moving from California where I'm from where I've I've known people that knew me from the time I was prepubescent I I had the hardest time finding people to help me move, to help me pack my stuff. I got two people and they could only come at separate times.

20:47 And look, and like you know who your friends are. I was going to use that as an example of like Well, yeah. Yeah. Because when you ask people to help you move, there's no benefit for that person. It sucks. It's like if you love me, you'll come help me because you're you're not going to let me eat this turd sandwich on my own. And on the flip side, it's like I I had every time I've had Well, not now. I'm older now and a lot of my friends don't move like that, but like when I was in my 20s, I had a truck. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And everybody's asking the truck guy. Hey, man. What have you been doing lately? I haven't talked to you in 6 months. Oh, man. Just living, you know, hanging out. Uh, you have a truck, right? Yeah. Can I use it cuz I'm moving? Can you come help me move? There you go. Praise the Lord. That's that's that's But it's like on either side like you're asking people for help and they really they don't want to help you. Right. Right. It's not beneficial for them. No one wants to come No one wants to move their own house. Right. And and so like some people like, well, if you're old enough, you should just pay movers. And I, you know, I think you could make arguments for all that, but the point I'm making is then I came out here to Texas and I had one dude that we knew out here that recruited four other people from our church, uh, some of whom I still know that showed up at my house to unpack our truck.

21:54 Dude, I cannot tell you how much that moved me. Like I I was just like, man. And the point I'm making is I think that there's such a different culture. We live in a pretty awesome bubble in where we're at. But I think just in the wider sense what I've experienced from my neighbors in my neighborhood who are not part of our bubble is just it's it's reflective of the the culture and the environment here in Texas being different to California. And what I mean is this. How did California start? Gold Rush, baby. We're all going out there to get some gold. Well, that was hundreds of years ago, Nick. That's crazy. Well, what's out there now? Tech, gold rush. Hollywood, gold rush. Aka, I have a dream. What if I could strike it big? M and so what you have and for some people maybe their dream isn't tech or Hollywood but it's to have perfect weather to surf all the time to have this idealized life. So what happens is people have like a a a an interest that they want to go. What I found in California was people were fine to be friends with you as long as you fit into what they were trying to do as far as like hey if you kind of like fit in with my lifestyle. So they'd be like hey we should hang out we're getting along. Yeah let's get together and then you'd like text them or follow up and nothing would happen. And it drove me and my wife crazy because we're very relational people. So when we moved out to Texas, one of the criteria we had was that we wanted community. That was like one of our one of the big three criteria that we had, we wanted community, affordability, and traditional values.

23:10 And Texas met all those better than anywhere else that we uh could see or think of or research. And so here we are. And and also God directed us here. But I just look at that and I go, okay, so going back to what you said, why do you think the way you think? Some people have grown up in a culture where it's like, cuz in California, what are you doing? I'm surfing. Then I'm skiing. Then I'm going out to the desert. Then I'm going to sit out and I'm gonna like go for a run by the bay and then I've got like 15 things I'm going to do. Now I need to run over here and get a burrito and then like maybe we can hang out for five minutes. There's just so much to do and like and if you don't ever stop and take hold of that thought process, you'll just you'll never you like to me I say that your standards like like you said a lot of people would say we got to find the win-win. That's my standard for business. And you're saying your real standard is that they want to win for themselves. To me the standards are the things that you don't question. the things that you're taking completely for granted are the things that are dictating a lot of your behavior and you don't even know what's going on. And that's where it gets really dangerous because until you hear somebody kind of, you know, disrupt your pattern and go, "Hey, why are you doing that?" or "Where did you learn that from?" Well, I don't know. This this is just the way it is. No, it's not. This is the way it is for you.

24:14 Yeah. And that's that's a real that's a powerful moment where you can potentially change a lot. But what I'm what I'm asking you is how do you how do you get like why would you be transformational? like how you know cuz like some people you do need to get out of your life. Other people it's like maybe God's called you to serve them or you know what if you don't believe in God you know what I mean? So like there's there's all these variances for this. Yeah. Well man I think um like Proverbs 18 I think says that a man who has friends must show himself friendly, right? So if you if we approach if I approach a relationship and my initial thought there's nothing wrong I think with saying what am I getting out of this relationship like there there's there's there's a dynamic of energy demanding and energy producing and we all what's it doing to my life? Yeah we all have energy demanding relationships and energy producing relationships. So we should lean on the side of energy producing relationships. But if the starting point for me of entering a relationship is me needing everybody to produce energy for me, right?

25:14 Then I'm the energy demander. Right. Right. So then I'm treating a you know the way one of the ways to know you're in a transactional relationship or you're approaching a relationship transactionally. I think in on this podcast especially don't think about what other people do to you. Think about what you do to other people. Yeah. you know this isn't like one for hey I'm going send this to my you know friend because they treat me like a transaction relationship like all of us I think like I was saying I mean in the western world it's highly individualistic and we all have been taught we all have an individ we all have an innate human tendency to do this but we've all been taught by culture that you should do this because no one's going to look out for you. Yeah. And um so we should just think about ourselves like mainly and and for me one of the ways that I know that I'm approaching a relationship as a transaction is if my first thought is what am I getting out of this? Yeah. And it and and that's that's actually a really deep challenge for me because I'm a pretty introverted person. And so if someone's like, "Hey, we should go do this together or I want you to be a part of this." I'm like, "I'm not interested.

26:13 It doesn't none of that's fun for me." Yeah. And I'm saying this as his friend. Even if his friends invite him, like me and Garrett like have to we invite you to things. I'm like, "Dude, you guys invite me to like run 50 miles and climb. We invite you to go get burritos that one day and you're like, "No, man. I'm just gonna go home. I've got a new video game." I'm like, "Dude, get in the truck." Like, you're coming. One day we invited you for burritos, dude. It's It's not that. No, I mean I I for real. I'm saying that to reinforce. You're saying your natural default is I'm good. Thank you for supporting my self-deprecation and giving a a large weight of evidence. Let me tell you how this this is actually the airing of grievances podcast. Josh, I've got a long list. No, I'm saying that but for real. No, I mean for me I'm saying that as a person who who my number one default thought Yeah. is like what's in it for me? I'm very much naturally that way. Okay. And um I and so the the reason why I say that is because um I think generosity is something you learn. It's not something that you just are. I think there's people that are naturally maybe more sharing and more generous and more like collective in their thinking, but approaching a relationship and saying what am I putting in versus what am I what am I putting in first and not being like what am I getting out of it is is really hard. But then you have to bring the balance of uh being able to get a win-win. So you don't want to, you know, what a lot of people will do too is they'll allow themselves to be completely tak explained it uh is is about finding good relationships uh is so so succinct and really good. He said you should ask yourself three questions when it comes to relationships. Who am I around? What are they doing to me? And then is that good?

28:00 So, so but then I think the the kind of like converse of that or a a parallel to that is ask yourself at least those last two questions to you like what am I doing to other people and is that a good thing? Yeah. And um like so for instance in a in a marriage, right? The way that we the way that we can approach a marriage that's transactional is keeping score, right? So I'm really great at that. Like I have a great memory. I can I can remember everything that Courtney does or doesn't do that doesn't align with me or doesn't work with me or whatever. And for every for every one time, you know, like in an ar and I can also outar argue her, right? So for every one time that I do something wrong, I can think of nine things she did wrong. Yeah. So then, so then what you do is you approach a So a way to know again that you're in a transaction, you're you're approaching relationships transactionally is if you're trying to win.

29:01 Yeah. So when you're in an argument with your spouse and you're trying to win the argument, you're not being transformational. Right. Right. You're being transactional because you're trying to get the win and prove that you're right. Like I've said this before, I think it's so and I've seen my dad do this. So this To me, honestly, at 38, this feels impossible. But, you know, I've seen it done. I've seen it done, so I believe that it can happen. Um, when my dad is arguing with my mom, uh, they've been together almost 50 years. They've been married for 43 years. Uh, he'll stop and he'll go, I don't I don't like the way I'm being right now. Right? And I just I I observe it, so I believe that it's real. I can't say that's fake, but that feels impossible to be that way. Cuz when I get into that mode, I get into winning mode. I get into like, okay, now we're doing this. I'm going to put you in your place. And I don't even see that person as like my partner in life. Right.

29:58 I see that person as someone who I'm going to make sure that they know who's in charge today. Right. Right. So, I think approaching relationships that way is how you know like if you're looking in a relationship, you're in an argument, you're in a disagreement, or you're just live living life with people and you go, "How do I win? How do I make sure that I win here?" That's one of the ways to know that you're approaching life in a transactional way. Yeah. Like one of my Can I ask you a question? kind of interrupt you cuz I feel like this there's this thought underneath this that's really like gnawing at me because I think it determines so much of what you're saying because you're talking about some of the outputs of transactional and transformational but what do you think the purpose of relationships are I think it's a great question for all of us to ask well that's why I'm asking it man I only asked the great questions powered by this uh triple diesel coffee that we got here and my mind is like seeing the future but but like legitimately because no because that's going to that's going to answer so much of that's that's the question that's underneath all this that that we had that I don't think most people ask because now you're going to reveal your source of truth, your template, all those sort of things.

31:04 Well, and who taught you to think the way you think about relationship? What what do you think the purpose is of relationships? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Um, well, I mean, that's that's to me I think fundamentally that's like the ultimate question of this this episode is is your ultimate purpose in relationships to to have a to have a transaction take place or to transform? So like for like for me, right? All of us have people that have invested in us that were not investing in us because it was beneficial to them, right? It was because of what they saw in us, right? So I think of all the people throughout my life that have mentored me, poured into me. I mean, when you my my parents, right? Like when your parents are raising you, they're not like, you know, if they're good parents, a great return on investment, right? Yeah. If your parents are raising you, they're not like, I need to make sure that I get a return on all my time that I spend with you. Yeah. I've got a ledger for my kids. One day they're going to pay it full.

31:56 It's beautiful. It's Yeah, it's wonderful. I'm sure it's going to work out well. Yeah. Have a great dad. Um so, so we've all seen in our own lives the transformation that's taking place taking place in our lives because someone said, "I'm going to treat you like an investment." Like that's what great mentors do. That's what that's what great coaches do. They're like, "I see the potential in you and I want to come alongside you and do whatever I can to help you realize that potential. Um, it's hard to be that way because you you step into this, I think, a philosophical space of sowing and reaping. Mhm. And it's actually really hard to live in a world that's governed by sowing and reaping because you sow first. So, the problem the problem that people have in culture is they expect to reap before they sow. Yeah. Or instantly after they sow.

32:47 Yeah. Like I was well I was talking to a guy the other day and he was talking to me about how he doesn't make enough money and I'm like hey we all feel that way. Everyone in the world feels like they don't make enough money. And he's like well I need I need this place that I'm working at to pay me more. So I said okay so what are you doing what are you doing that is adding more value than you were adding like 6 months ago? Yeah. No they just need to pay me more because inflation gas prices, grocery bills, whatever. And I said that I I understand that. I understand the philosophy because a lot of people in the world today have that philosophy. That's just not how it works. The way it works is you add the value first and then you can extract the value once you've added the value. Right? So the law of sowing and reaping says, so if you're listening to this and you're like, how do I get a raise at my job? Do more than you're asked to do for a sustained period of time, whatever that is, 3 months, 6 months, a year, five years, and then you'll get paid more because it's just how it works. So if you sow more, you're going to reap more.

33:43 And people go, "Well, that's not fair." I understand. I didn't create this though. Well, I want to step in here though because this is one that I have a I I have thought at length about this. I think what people sail past when they when they get to that point is they don't they didn't understand the rules of the game they're playing. Last year I had a difficult year financially and it was one of the best years of my life. Guess what? This year is even better. And I'm not saying that to to brag or to flex. It's because I learned a lesson that was so valuable to me last year that it has been the foundational building block of which I've launched and and I have three businesses and there and like right now I'm just like man Lord you are blessing me. It's it's tremendous. So I'll just say that but here's here was the big takeaway. There are rules and models and your dad says that the the B that the Bible is is the template, right? Like it's full of templates, right? And and I like I think that's so profound that anything you want in life, there's a template because what we go is like, "Okay, cool." And in our mind, template is follow this five-step process. But when you actually understand a template, you understand all the working parts and how they work together to achieve to for to get an end result. So it's not just like step one, turn on the factory machine, step two, you know, feed in steel. It's okay, here's how all this stuff works together so that it actually comes out with what you see, but it's much more than just following some simple steps. So, what I mean by that in relation to what we're saying, people will get into these jobs and they'll have like, I should get paid this much. Maybe you are worth that, but you didn't sign up to a game where you get to determine your worth. The rules of the game that you've chosen to play are, I'm going to work for you, which means the best chance you have to determine your worth is at the negotiation table. After that point, you are only going to get raises based on you being able to convince them again because who's the one who gets the final say? They do, not you. So, so if you want to be the type of person where you're like, I think I'm worth more.

35:30 Either start your own business or get into something that's commission based and and like you look around at the wealthiest people in the world, it's not people who work for other people. It's people who own the business. And we sail past that. But when you start understanding the rules of the game that you're playing, you won't you I I if you're somebody who has discipline and and rationale, which is, you know, a big if, uh you you'll be able to stop and go like, "Hang on, that's not the that's not the game I signed up for." Yeah. Well, like Brian Tracy, Brian Tracy says it this way. He says the there's an ironclad law of the universe and it's the law of sowing and reaping, right? And um because even the even the idea that you know like if you let's say you don't work a W2 job and you do contract work or you work with clients, the reason I can go to a client and say here's how much you need to pay me is because of my past successes.

36:22 Right? So in the past I've produced this value therefore I can go extract value right because I've sown basically right so what so the problem of uh the problem with people right is that we think that we should reap first and then we'll sow more right so people approach client work or they approach their bosses or they approach approach their marriage or any relationship and they think I will add more value once I am valued or once I get value out of this situation. Yeah. and the way to shift it. So the like back to what you said about what is like really the purpose of relationships. The purpose of relationships I love what Andy Stanley said uh I think this in the book Irresistible. He said my job is not to fill up another person's cup. My job is to pour my cup out. So interesting. One of the things I'm learning that I mean it's I'm in a season of my life right now where it's just this is like a I wouldn't say it's a hard lesson in terms of I'm experience experiencing a bunch of bunch of consequences. I would say it's just a hard lesson because it's so antithetical to feeling like I'm winning, right?

37:34 Is that everything is about generosity and sowing and giving first and approaching life. that my job with the people around me is to give my best to them and not worry about whether or not the return is ever there. Yeah. Like I have to trust that the law of sowing and reaping works. And so the goal of relationships for me is for me to give my best to people to hopefully benefit them. Yeah. Right. Um where did you get that where did you get that thought process from? Well, I just put it together while you while we were I mean I think I think I mean I've never like written that out, right? But I think that um you know the the Bible the Bible talks about give as you've freely been given. You know like it's been given to you so give it away freely. I mean the the Bible talks about things like forgiveness and saying that you know if you don't forgive other people God's not God's not going to forgive you. That's what Jesus said. And um someone has to be the one someone has to be the first mover. someone has to be the person who in the situation says you know what I am not going to be about my personal benefit here. Like I was going to say this a second ago. Um so McManus is a great friend and like mentor of mine and recently I was in a room with him and he was talking about his approach to like board games and and all like Wow. Yeah.

38:56 Yeah. And all his his he has a friend who loves playing like all these like award-winning games like Settlers of Catan and all this stuff. Yeah. And so he developed this Erwin developed this this philosophy that when he plays when you play a game with him, he'll give you everything you ask for, everything you want. He'll look to you and go, "Hey, what do you what do you need?" And he'll just give you that. So he would give, you know, and he'd always win. Like he's he the way he said it is like he he didn't just win like 80% of the time. He won 100% of the time. People don't even play games with him anymore. Like Aaron Yeah. Aaron, who's my friend, who is who's his son, is sitting there going, "Yeah, it's 100% true." So people now when they go play games with Erwin McManus, they go, "Don't don't let him give you anything because he'll win." That's crazy. Yeah. Because he had this he had this theory. So like his deal was like, "Okay, if if you have if I need a red card and and and uh and everyone has red cards, but I have a yellow card, right? What people do is they go, "Well, I'm just going to hold on to my red cards."

39:57 Yeah. He goes, "But what I did, I'll just give away all my yellow cards and then eventually everything I need will just come to me." So, it's it's that that perspective and I'm talking about game theory, but that perspective was like such a Yeah. like a mind shift for me. Yeah. Um and I because I wouldn't I wouldn't say I approach relationships going, "Hey, like this needs to be to my advantage." But I do really truly often think, "How can I get what I want here?" Right. And Zig Ziglar said, "Yep. If you help enough other people in life get what they want, you'll have everything that you want." Yeah. You know, um, can I can I just I want to can I extract a few things from what you just said because I love what you said and I agree with what you said. Um, I think where I've learned a template for for for relationships has been uh sparked by your dad because and also I think it like I think about some people are really great at relationships because they had really great relationships modeled for them and you said that you know we're built to follow. That's that's those were my words but that's essentially what you say is that we're followers, right? Like go like and we know this we're going to follow something.

41:07 Yeah. We're going to follow something. And so most people will follow whatever the template was in front of them. And if you're fortunate enough that you had a kind grandma or a kind grandfather who was really good about investing in people, you'll you might have picked up this great trait in friendships and this great belief about friendships without knowing it. But for most of us, your parents were modeling how to treat a person and they were doing it from a place of, man, we're, you know, if you didn't have a lot, maybe your parents were stressed and busy all the time, they didn't have a ton of time for you. So what's amazing about this is that human beings are always being conditioned and you don't realize that you start treating people like that. That was my experience. I'm not knocking my parents. My parents are wonderful people. But they were trying to they were trying to make ends meet. Yeah. It's like that's like what we've been saying. This is the Western world, man. This is this is how the world we live in just operates. Yeah. So, if you don't stop and take hold and go like, where did I actually learn relationships from? So, for for me being a follower of Jesus, I'm always going to look to the Bible for my template. And your dad has demonstrated for me better than anybody I've ever met. Your dad's been an unlock for me. I love your dad. He's such a blessing to me. Uh I don't know if he'll ever listen to this, but I love you, PK. He he has demonstrated to me more than anybody of like this is what God did so I'm going to do it.

42:13 And it's that thought process that Jesus says of you know I only do what I see the father doing. And so I go okay well where do we learn about relationships? Well it's it's the very beginning. God literally makes a man. He puts him in a garden and says this is your work to do. And then he brings all like and he says I want you to be fruitful you know multiply fill the earth have dominion. And then he brings all the animals to him and sees what they name him because he's looking for a suitable helper because he goes, "I've given you this work to do, but actually it's too much." Pre-in because a lot of people get hung up on sin. Prein, he says, "It's too much for you to do. You can't be alone. I need to get you a helper." So the thought process now becomes I can't birth the purpose for my life without other people. So I need other people and they need me cuz likely they can't do it either. Okay. So now that's a different thing. Well, it going back to what your dad said about like or what I've learned from your dad about this is how the father is. Well, what what does God do? God doesn't do things from a place of like I need this from you. God does things from a place of love and from self-sufficiency. Now, I'm never going to be self-sufficient like God. But my attitude and relationships, I'm talking about with my wife, with my kids, with everybody is that I want to draw my sufficiency as much as possible. And I don't believe that God designed it for us to be 100% sufficient in our relationship with him. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it's not good for man to be alone. But like I want to draw my sufficiency from God so that I can be the person in all my relationships that I'm giving to those people because I know and I don't know what it is, but I do know that in all the relationships that I've been entrusted with, I'm there for a reason. They're there for a reason and God's ultimately the one in control.

43:40 So like if I'm not sowing into those people, if I don't look at people that come into my world as I'm being entrusted with them, then I will switch to transactional. The re I've only developed this in the last five years because I've had this thought process of like, man, I need to like really understand the purpose of relationships. And the more I look at it, the more I go like, okay, God's given us three things to live this life. His word, his spirit, and other people. I think that I really think it's that's those three elements are consistent for everybody. I don't care who you are. So, if you're if you're not actively engaging and understanding there's a stewardship element of that for each of those areas, I think you're missing it. and you're you're missing out on God's purpose for your life. You're missing out on new things that can be birthed. And so like part of this I've learned from your dad and other parts I've just worked out. But like in my in my marriage, I don't want to be like, "Hey babe, I need you to do this, this, and this for me." Like, you know, there's, you know, without being overly there's one thing that I need my wife to do for me that nobody else in the world can do, right?

44:36 I'm a man, okay? And I'm not I'm just I'm just being straight. But like but but like by and large for like I you know, I want to be a great companion. I want to be there to serve my wife, to listen to her. Do I do I need my wife more than I can even describe to you. I'm more connected to my wife than I actually understand. And and there's a whole another story to that. But but I don't want to be where I'm like I'm needy for her. Like I'm placing a great demand on her because I don't believe I look at how God is in relationships and I seek to be that way. Y and so like I think that the interesting like you use the word stewardship, right? So um stewardship is a whole long thing. I mean, I've talked we've talked about this before like in mighty man and stuff like that at our church, but the fundamental aspect of being a good steward is um you know, you do what the master says with his stuff, which what a steward does. And the fundamental way to be a good steward is to practice generosity because that's what God says to do is to live in like this generous flow.

45:35 And there's so there's so much depth to like being a transactional person and approaching relationships transactionally. that you know don't see relationships as a cost. See them as an investment. See them as a thing that you can give towards and know that a return happens. But Rick Warren said, I heard Rick Warren say this one time, sowing and reaping don't happen in the same season. And they they often don't happen with the same person because sometimes like you give and you give and you give to a relationship and then that that relationship becomes maybe toxic or energy demanding but then God brings you great friends and great relationships around you. And so the law of sowing and reaping just works. And if you want to approach life and live in a trans a transformational flow with people like Luke 6:38 says, give and it'll be given to you. Pressed down, shaken together, and running over with the same measure you use, it'll be given back to you.

46:27 Yeah. So if I want to receive a return of any kind, right, which again shouldn't be my goal. Like transactional people think, well, I need to get a return out of this. Yeah. So, but even if I wanted to approach it transactionally, which I probably shouldn't, but even if I wanted to approach it transactionally, what I should do is I should really give first. I should really be really giving first and then that'll just happen. And I think it's so hard to step into that space because you release control over the outcome. Like, so you release control over the outcome of a relationship, you know, or you you know, and there's a lot of balance to this. There's a lot of nuance. Like if you're listening to this and you think that um we're telling you to just remain in toxic relationships, you're not paying attention very well, you know?

47:18 Um because this isn't about staying in toxic relationships and continuing to give and give and give to energy demanders. There's a real, you know, you've got to find people that also think transformationally. Yes. So that's so that's that's the that's the first thing is you've got to think transformationally and that starts with you thinking what can I sow, not what can I reap. But then you've also got to find other people that think that way. Yeah. Because there's this truth that So there's two things I would say kind of as we wrap this episode and that's if you give other people everything that they need in life to win. What just happens whether it's playing board games or being married to somebody or doing business. If you give people what they need to win, you will get everything you need to win. It's a law of the universe that God created. This is the law of sowing and reaping. We can call it manifesting. We can call it abundance mentality. We can call it whatever we want to call it. It's just the law of sowing and reaping. But the second thing is also true that is a whole other road that we can go down. Most people live their life thinking that everybody's trying to take advantage of them.

48:25 And that's mostly wrong. Right. Most people aren't trying to take advantage of us. They're just trying to win for themselves. Right. So they'll yeah they will take advantage of us but that's not the goal. The goal of the you know if you're in a you know most people think win lose. They think I have to win in order for you to lose. How do I how do I fix that in my relationship? I go hey you know what you don't have to worry about me winning. I'm going to help you win. And then a person goes oh well I want to help you win. Like that's the premise of Zig Ziglar 's quote. Yeah. If you help another enough other people get what they want you'll get what you want. And if you hear Zig Ziglar talk about that, that doesn't mean that it comes from the universe somewhere. What he means is you will build quality relationships with those people who you're helping that they'll turn around and want to help you. Yeah. So like I'm I I didn't have like a deep conversation with Erwin like about this, but I'm convinced in my mind at least the reason why he wins the the the games is because he approaches it and goes, I'm going to be generous first. I'm going to give everybody everything that they need. And then what all those people do is they see Erwin as being on their team even though they're playing a game against him. Right.

49:33 So then they go, "Well, okay, how can how can I help you then? Because you're helping me and you have what I need, but I also have some stuff that you need." Yeah. And then and then you end up developing the literal definition of a transformational relationship because you start to see the benefit of this person in your life, this person who you're playing the game with. like like I was talking to someone recently about their relationship and they were saying, you know, I really need to change this person to be more like me. And my my response to them was, no, you probably need to change yourself to be more like them. That's why God's put that person in your life. Like I'm grateful if I see my marriage or or a business partnership. Yeah. as a as a beneficial relationship or as as a transformational relationship, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go, okay, God put this person in my life and how do I need to come more their way than getting them to come my way?

50:26 Right. Right. It's like you're a you're you know, we're doing this podcast and and this is a just a great example for me in my mind. Um I don't know anything about marketing. I'm really bad at marketing. I'm bad at like presenting myself to the world. I've probably missed out on a lot of opportunities because of that. But you're my friend who's amazing at all that stuff I'm not good at. And my responsibility I feel like in this relationship with you is to is to do whatever it is like to come your way and say, "Okay, what do I need to learn? How do I need to think to to take advantage not for myself, but take advantage of what God can do through our relationship as it relates to things that you're really great at." Right. But if but what a lot of people do in a situation like that is they go okay this person is um they don't they don't notice most of us spend most of our time judging the judging another person's weaknesses through the lens of our strengths instead of looking at our weaknesses through the lens of their strengths. Like I would rather look at the my weaknesses through the lens of your strengths and go you know what like I can learn a lot about marketing. I can learn a lot about what you're great at, but also I could just say, "Hey, man, just help me."

51:35 Yeah. And uh I want to I want to be of benefit to you however I can, but I also really want your help. And when you start thinking that way, you create transformation in your own life because you do together what what none of you could ever do separately, you know. So I think fundamentally kind of practically ask yourself this question and is that do I approach relationships whatever the relationships are my marriage my relationship with my kids my business partnerships whatever do I approach those relationships thinking what can I get or do I approach them saying what can I give and then and then the second thing is stop thinking that everyone's trying to take advantage of you thank you for listening to The Dialog make sure to Like, share, and subscribe. And also, if you think someone else would enjoy this, please send it to them. If you want to get in touch or learn more about me, what I think, speak, and write, you can go to joshuacraft.com.

52:33 Or you can also follow Nick and I on Instagram. Our handles are in the show notes. We'll see you next time.